Swine flu vaccine: Poland smarter than everybody else :P

[DGuller]

Dude, a PANDEMIC doesn't mean it is dangerous. jesus christ. That's the thing. Media and everybody else heard the word "pandemic" and went into a panic mode.

Common cold is a "pandemic". Herpes is a "pandemic". But noone shits their pants over it because the fact that something is a pandemic does not say anything about the threat.

Sounds like someone learned what "pandemic" is, and suddenly is considering himself an expert.  It's a shame that he didn't even learn the proper definition of a "pandemic".  Here is a primer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic .  The first couple of paragraphs already disqualify both the common cold and the herpes, as well as a regular seasonal flu.

[DisturbedPervert]

[Malthus]

I guess the battle is between this and "Chicken Little" or "The Boy Who Cried Wolf". 

[Drakken]

Where is Drakken anyway?

Malthus and DGuller are my paid bitches, so I can spent my time "giving the jab" to the sexy chicks big pharma have supplied me for my loyal services.

[The Brain]

Regular flu can't mutate into danger (non-rhetorical)?

[Drakken]

Regular flu can't mutate into danger (non-rhetorical)?

Sure it can. But "regular" flu is colloquial name for "endemic" flu, going around the world in cycles and mutating or dying off for years, even decades on end.

That is why we can catch the same label of strain of flu more than once in our lives, like H3N2, because it mutates enough so that the immune system doesn't recognize it at first, but still remains similar enough that an healthy immune system can kill it off without too much damage.

The A H1N1 swine flu, however, was the product of a genetic recombination of DNA information from several strains put together in a single vessel.  The problem is that the average dumbass layman confuses "mutation" with "recombination". Flu strains mutate all the time, but they remain in basis similar. The real problem are the recombination, which lead to new strains of influenza.

[The Brain]

Regular flu can't mutate into danger (non-rhetorical)?

Sure it can. But "regular" flu is colloquial name for "endemic" flu, going around the world in cycles and mutating or dying off for years, even decades on end.

That is why we can catch the same label of strain of flu more than once in our lives, like H3N2, because it mutates enough so that the immune system doesn't recognize it at first.

The A H1N1 swine flu, however, was the product of a genetic recombination of DNA information from several strains put together in a single vessel.

How much greater was the risk of H1N1 mutating compared to regular flu? 10 times? 100 times?

[Drakken]

Regular flu can't mutate into danger (non-rhetorical)?

Sure it can. But "regular" flu is colloquial name for "endemic" flu, going around the world in cycles and mutating or dying off for years, even decades on end.

That is why we can catch the same label of strain of flu more than once in our lives, like H3N2, because it mutates enough so that the immune system doesn't recognize it at first.

The A H1N1 swine flu, however, was the product of a genetic recombination of DNA information from several strains put together in a single vessel.

How much greater was the risk of H1N1 mutating compared to regular flu? 10 times? 100 times?

Same, in theory. It remains influenza.

However, it seems this particular strain was more "stable" than other flu strains. It doesn't mean it doesn't mutate, it does like we have seen in Norway and France, and there are literally dozens and dozens of subtypes of A H1N1 swine flu strains in circulation. However, its basic pathogenic features remain similar from one to another, if only that it attacks deeper in the lungs and, in a small minority, leads to lethal damage to the lung tissue and pneumonia-like reactions.

[The Brain]

Regular flu can't mutate into danger (non-rhetorical)?

Sure it can. But "regular" flu is colloquial name for "endemic" flu, going around the world in cycles and mutating or dying off for years, even decades on end.

That is why we can catch the same label of strain of flu more than once in our lives, like H3N2, because it mutates enough so that the immune system doesn't recognize it at first.

The A H1N1 swine flu, however, was the product of a genetic recombination of DNA information from several strains put together in a single vessel.

How much greater was the risk of H1N1 mutating compared to regular flu? 10 times? 100 times?

Same, in theory. It remains influenza.

However, it seems this particular strain was more "stable" than other flu strains. It doesn't mean it doesn't mutate, it does like we have seen in Norway and France. However, its basic pathogenic features remain similar, if only that it attacks deeper in the lungs and, in a small minority, leads to lethal damage to the lung tissue and pneumonia-like reactions.

So, in layman's terms, why did we make all the fuss about swine flu? What was the key reason?

[Pat]

When it has died off for years and then returns bigger and badder, where was it all that time?

[Drakken]

Regular flu can't mutate into danger (non-rhetorical)?

Sure it can. But "regular" flu is colloquial name for "endemic" flu, going around the world in cycles and mutating or dying off for years, even decades on end.

That is why we can catch the same label of strain of flu more than once in our lives, like H3N2, because it mutates enough so that the immune system doesn't recognize it at first.

The A H1N1 swine flu, however, was the product of a genetic recombination of DNA information from several strains put together in a single vessel.

How much greater was the risk of H1N1 mutating compared to regular flu? 10 times? 100 times?

Same, in theory. It remains influenza.

However, it seems this particular strain was more "stable" than other flu strains. It doesn't mean it doesn't mutate, it does like we have seen in Norway and France. However, its basic pathogenic features remain similar, if only that it attacks deeper in the lungs and, in a small minority, leads to lethal damage to the lung tissue and pneumonia-like reactions.

So, in layman's terms, why did we make all the fuss about swine flu? What was the key reason?

Three things:

A) It killed off a larger number of healthy people, even with usually mild chronic issues like light asthma, diabetes, and even obesity, compared to usual percentages in endemic flu. You could not predict with a high level of confidence who would be fine and who would caught with tubes in the nose in ICU for the next two weeks fighting for his or her life. At least with endemic flu, you have some recognizeable patterns (the very young, the old, and the immunodepressed) other than rare cases that can be counted on one hand. With the swine flu you had teens, healthy people and pregnant women as well.

B) Linked to the above, there was no middle ground in pathology. Either you were sick with mild symptons for a week and fine afterwards, which was 95% of people, or sent to be intubed in ICU at the hospital.

C) Since it was a novel strain, none under the age of 50 had any immunity against it, and about a third of people over 50 had some level of immunity. So it had the potential to spread quickly, which it did, and kill a larger bassin of population that wouldn't die of flu otherwise (the ones listed above).

[The Brain]

Regular flu can't mutate into danger (non-rhetorical)?

Sure it can. But "regular" flu is colloquial name for "endemic" flu, going around the world in cycles and mutating or dying off for years, even decades on end.

That is why we can catch the same label of strain of flu more than once in our lives, like H3N2, because it mutates enough so that the immune system doesn't recognize it at first.

The A H1N1 swine flu, however, was the product of a genetic recombination of DNA information from several strains put together in a single vessel.

How much greater was the risk of H1N1 mutating compared to regular flu? 10 times? 100 times?

Same, in theory. It remains influenza.

However, it seems this particular strain was more "stable" than other flu strains. It doesn't mean it doesn't mutate, it does like we have seen in Norway and France. However, its basic pathogenic features remain similar, if only that it attacks deeper in the lungs and, in a small minority, leads to lethal damage to the lung tissue and pneumonia-like reactions.

So, in layman's terms, why did we make all the fuss about swine flu? What was the key reason?

Three things:

A) It killed off a larger number of healthy people, even with usually mild chronic issues like light asthma, diabetes, and even obesity, compared to usual percentages in endemic flu. You could not predict with a high level of confidence who would be fine and who would caught with tubes in the nose in ICU for the next two weeks fighting for his or her life. At least with endemic flu, you have some recognizeable patterns (the very young, the old, and the immunodepressed) other than rare cases that can be counted on one hand. With the swine flu you had teens, healthy people and pregnant women as well.

B) Linked to the above, there was no middle ground in pathology. Either you were sick for a week and fine afterwards, which was 95% of people, or dying in ICU.

C) Since it was a novel strain, none under the age of 50 had any immunity against it, and about a third of people over 50 had some level of immunity. So it had the potential to spread quickly, which it did, and kill a larger bassin of population that wouldn't die of flu otherwise (the one listed above).

OK, one final question: how much did you get? You can tell me.

[Barrister]

Elimination of a very remote, small risk at an enormous cost is just not something that is a rational response - it is purely emotional.

The risk from H1N1 was small, but I wouldn't call it "very remote".  The cost of the vaccine (when compared to the overall health budget) can in no way be called "enormous".  In fact when you consider the costs to the health care system (at least in a socialized medicine country like Canada) of people clogging up emergency rooms with 'normal' flu probably still justifies the cost, which is why they do flu shots every single year.

[Drakken]

When it has died off for years and then returns bigger and badder, where was it all that time?

Like I said, this H1N1 strain, while having the same hemagglutinin and neuraminidase as all other flu of the same strain, was the result of a recombination of several DNA from both human, avian, and swine flu strains, and thus was novel to anyone who was never exposed to a ressembling H1N1 before. Immunologists have found early that the 2009 AH1N1 swine flu strain was remotely similar to the 1957 pandemic H1N1 flu strain. Hence the conclusion that those who have been infected by that earlier strain before would have some level of immunity against this new strain.

Of course, other H1N1 strains from past pandemics are still in cyclical circulation (except the H1N1 Spanish Flu, which either disappeared or mutated enough to become much less virulent), and chances are this strain will become endemic as well, just like other "seasonal flu".

[Grallon]

So Drakken, was this thing engineered? 

I never have flu shots so I didn't have this one despite some misgivings during the height of the hysteria last fall.




G.