Georgia destroys Soviet monument, offends Russia

[Solmyr]

Considering that a memorial to WW2 soldiers is distinctly different from a memorial to communism

Yeah Russian WW2 soldiers didn't spread Communism like crazy. No Sir.

They also happened to do that little thing about fighting Nazis. So did Georgian soldiers, and soldiers of pretty much every other nationality in the Soviet Union at the time. Which is what the memorial in question is about.

If the poor Russians didn't want WW2 maybe they shouldn't have co-started it? Just a thought. Karma's a bitch.

Says the Swede whose country's only achievement in the last 300 years is collaborating with Nazis.

[HisMajestyBOB]

Next month:

"Russia destroys Georgia"

[The Brain]

Considering that a memorial to WW2 soldiers is distinctly different from a memorial to communism

Yeah Russian WW2 soldiers didn't spread Communism like crazy. No Sir.

They also happened to do that little thing about fighting Nazis. So did Georgian soldiers, and soldiers of pretty much every other nationality in the Soviet Union at the time. Which is what the memorial in question is about.

If the poor Russians didn't want WW2 maybe they shouldn't have co-started it? Just a thought. Karma's a bitch.

Says the Swede whose country's only achievement in the last 300 years is collaborating with Nazis.

Not my fault that we didn't go through with our atomic bomb program.

[grumbler]

It is always OK to offend Russia, up to and including by bombing them back to the Jazz Age.

I have no idea how you keep coming up with fresh funny stuff after so long.  Kudos, sir.

[The Brain]

It is always OK to offend Russia, up to and including by bombing them back to the Jazz Age.

I have no idea how you keep coming up with fresh funny stuff after so long.  Kudos, sir.

I think it's the second time I've used that joke. 

[jimmy olsen]

I was hoping to see some epic bronze or marble statuary when I opened this, but that thing is ugly as sin.

Still, tearing down a monument dedicated to the soldiers killed fighting Nazism is a bit dodgy.

[The Larch]

I was thinking about hijacking this and taking it to a debate on simbology from a previous undemocratic regime on public grounds, but finally decided against it. If anyone fancies that debate, I'm all for it.

On the current issue, bad form, I'd say. Similar to what Estonia did a couple of years ago.

[jimmy olsen]

I was thinking about hijacking this and taking it to a debate on simbology from a previous undemocratic regime on public grounds, but finally decided against it. If anyone fancies that debate, I'm all for it.

On the current issue, bad form, I'd say. Similar to what Estonia did a couple of years ago.

Could be interesting. I think it would depend on what exactly the symbol represents or what the monument is specifically dedicated to.

[Sheilbh]

Could be interesting. I think it would depend on what exactly the symbol represents or what the monument is specifically dedicated to.

But those two aren't always the same.  What a monument is dedicated to and what it represents to the people of that country can be very different things, which makes it difficult.

[The Larch]

What I had in mind were specifically public symbols (street names, statues, etc.) of Francoist Spain in present day Spain. Over the last few years the few symbols remaining are being removed, and there's always some feather ruffling attached.

[Martinus]

We have been having the same thing with removal of communist symbols and stuff like street name changes. However, there is imho a fine line between, say, changing the name of a street named after some communist government apparatchik, and one named after some pre-WW2 Polish communist activist who was killed by the nazis.

I think the problem when dealing with remnants of the old regime (especially non-occupant ones - like in Spain or, arguably, Poland) is do you limit yourself to removing stuff memorizing the really bad people, or do you also go after imagery that memorizes people who were not, in themselves, evil but whose names were used to further the regime's cause. This applies both to "retroactive heroes" the regime adopted as its "founding fathers" (people like Wagner for nazis, for example or Marx for communism), and for people like some worker in Poland who got a street named after him because he worked hard or something.

[Slargos]

We have been having the same thing with removal of communist symbols and stuff like street name changes. However, there is imho a fine line between, say, changing the name of a street named after some communist government apparatchik, and one named after some pre-WW2 Polish communist activist who was killed by the nazis.

I think the problem when dealing with remnants of the old regime (especially non-occupant ones - like in Spain or, arguably, Poland) is do you limit yourself to removing stuff memorizing the really bad people, or do you also go after imagery that memorizes people who were not, in themselves, evil but whose names were used to further the regime's cause. This applies both to "retroactive heroes" the regime adopted as its "founding fathers" (people like Wagner for nazis, for example or Marx for communism), and for people like some worker in Poland who got a street named after him because he worked hard or something.

I don't think it's reasonable to go after the latter category on a rational level, but if these people's names evoke enough ill feeling, then it's certainly justifiable.

It's stupid, but people can do very stupid things when they feel reason for feigning slight.

[Camerus]

Considering that Russia just fought a war against Georgia only a year and a half ago, and still now threatens to wipe it off the map, I'd say it's pretty fucking understandable.

That's one way in which the situation is different from, say, Poland or Spain, where the old oppressors have already been vanquished forever.  It allows for a different, and perhaps more nuanced, analysis.

[Admiral Yi]

I was thinking about hijacking this and taking it to a debate on simbology from a previous undemocratic regime on public grounds, but finally decided against it. If anyone fancies that debate, I'm all for it.

On the current issue, bad form, I'd say. Similar to what Estonia did a couple of years ago.

Worse than what Estonia did.  Estonia had the argument that they got zapped by Stalin during WWII, Georgia not so much.

Now if Georgia had blown up a monument to the Russian Civil War I would be more understanding.

[Neil]

I was hoping to see some epic bronze or marble statuary when I opened this, but that thing is ugly as sin.

Still, tearing down a monument dedicated to the soldiers killed fighting Nazism is a bit dodgy.

Not really.  Fighting Russia's imperial wars isn't something that the Georgians would necessarily want to honour.  Especially since the Russians are going to murder them all at some point in the next few years.