Straight exes - the quiet voice for gay marriage

[Martinus]

Plus, if you couple this with a lot of lies being repeated about sexual orientation (like claims about successes of "reparative therapies" or praying the gay away etc.), it is a little surprise that in the absence of a stable homosexual marriage (and thus the idea that the opposite of a stable heterosexual marriage is the uncertain state of homosexual promiscuity) many homosexual guys, especially in more conservative and rural areas, marry straight girls hoping that if they try hard enough they will grow to like it.

Again, a lot of public figures, in the US or outside (politicians, pastors, even some "scientists") claim that one can change one's sexual orientation - how's then that a case of identity issues, as you suggest, Malthus, that someone believes them?

[HVC]

Again, a lot of public figures, in the US or outside (politicians, pastors, even some "scientists") claim that one can change one's sexual orientation - how's then that a case of identity issues, as you suggest, Malthus, that someone believes them?

But they believe them becasue, for whatever social or psycological reasons, they want to be straight. giving them the option to marry men won't change that. They'll still marry women in the hope that will make them straight.

[Martinus]

Again, a lot of public figures, in the US or outside (politicians, pastors, even some "scientists") claim that one can change one's sexual orientation - how's then that a case of identity issues, as you suggest, Malthus, that someone believes them?

But they believe them becasue, for whatever social or psycological reasons, they want to be straight. giving them the option to marry men won't change that. They'll still marry women in the hope that will make them straight.

Not being able to marry another guy is one of the contributing factors though - even if not the only one - to their motivation - and it also convinces them that these people are right, because this is a clear sign from the society that gay love/relationships are inferior.

It seems many Languishites have a problem with grasping the concept of multiple contributing causalities.

[Josquius]

I'm not sure I agree that it is meaningless. After all, one of the reasons it took me a while to come out was because I thought being gay was something shameful. If there had been government recognize partnerships, that would have gone a long way for me.

I find that odd.
I've always been a bit 'in the closet' even as a straight man because...I just have one of those families. They would be all in my buisness and going 'oooohhh Tyr has a girlfriend, Tyr has a girlfriend' and ripping the piss out of me.
That it is totally acceptable in the broad scope of society to marry a woman doesn't change that.

I have to admit that yeah, being gay is still seen as something quite shameful, back in my teenage years I did wonder if I was gay and was really quite 'I bloody well hope not' about it. I don't see how gay marriage would change that though. If anything it would make it even worse- increased visibility of the 'sissier' aspects of homosexuality.
Even with straight relationships its seen as a bad thing for the man to talk too much of love, commitment and all that with his peers.


I think waaayyy too much emphasis is being put on the importance of marriage here.
Sure, gays should have the right to equal rights as everyone else, fair enough. But...its really not that big a deal. Straight people increasingly don't bother with marriage, its becoming an increasingly outdated institution.
Its quite a petty argument really; of course gays are still on the side of right here but whether its called civil partnership or whether its called marriage isn't the end of the world.

[Neil]

Gays don't marry straight people because they are ok with being gay, but REALLY REALLY REALLY want to be married.

You would be surprised.

One of my exes (who is either bi and tending gay or gay in denial) actually decided to try his luck with a chick because he thinks marriage is a stable institution and whatnot. Of course you may then say that he is not ok with being gay but it is a chicken and an egg dilemma and it is clear both things are related.

You'd be amazed how much better a relationship functions where there are adults involved, rather than junior high girls.

[Malthus]

Seems to me there is a big difference between not wishing to publicly announce one's homosexuality because of a fear of prejudice (perfectly understandable IMO) and going so far as to marry someone of the opposite sex.

The latter indicates real identity issues which I would imagine would not be remedied by access to gay marriage.

Maybe it could be argued that enacting gay marriage would be a social signal that would reduce homophobia, to the point where less folks would have such issues. But I think the better position is that its effect would be marginal. People in such denial as to actually go out and marry a woman, are not going to suddenly decide not to be in denial because they could now marry a man.

Like Mart just suggested, I think it is a matter of location. From liberal Massachusetts I really had little to actually fear (perhaps some taunting at school) as my family had given me no indication whatsoever that they'd reject me.  However, for someone in a different situation, it isn't implausible.  In fact until sometime near 16 or 17, I'd succeeded in convincing myself that I was a bisexual (not as bad as a homosexual, surely!).

Fair enough; the question though is whether having gay marriage as an option would change that, if it were (say) available in Alabama.

[Malthus]

Plus, if you couple this with a lot of lies being repeated about sexual orientation (like claims about successes of "reparative therapies" or praying the gay away etc.), it is a little surprise that in the absence of a stable homosexual marriage (and thus the idea that the opposite of a stable heterosexual marriage is the uncertain state of homosexual promiscuity) many homosexual guys, especially in more conservative and rural areas, marry straight girls hoping that if they try hard enough they will grow to like it.

Again, a lot of public figures, in the US or outside (politicians, pastors, even some "scientists") claim that one can change one's sexual orientation - how's then that a case of identity issues, as you suggest, Malthus, that someone believes them?

Again, the issue is whether having gay marriage available would change that, so people would not be attracted to such notions.

To my mind at least, the best argument would be that it would be a factor in making homosexuality slightly more publically acceptable. If the general population has backwards attitudes, it isn't going to change that much.

Thus the 'damage done by people denying their own sexuality to marry women' isn't a particularly strong argument for gay marriage, since having gay marriage is only weakly linked to such damage.

[derspiess]

Don't challenge Marty's contention that gay marriage is a panacea!

[CountDeMoney]

We REALLY need a gay sub-forum.
SEGREGATION FOREVER

[garbon]

To my mind at least, the best argument would be that it would be a factor in making homosexuality slightly more publically acceptable. If the general population has backwards attitudes, it isn't going to change that much.

You gotta crawl before you walk or run.

[garbon]

I have to admit that yeah, being gay is still seen as something quite shameful, back in my teenage years I did wonder if I was gay and was really quite 'I bloody well hope not' about it. I don't see how gay marriage would change that though. If anything it would make it even worse- increased visibility of the 'sissier' aspects of homosexuality.
Even with straight relationships its seen as a bad thing for the man to talk too much of love, commitment and all that with his peers.

That was never a problem for me.  I was rather open about playing with action figure, My Little Pony, toy guns, and Barbies.

I think waaayyy too much emphasis is being put on the importance of marriage here.
Sure, gays should have the right to equal rights as everyone else, fair enough. But...its really not that big a deal. Straight people increasingly don't bother with marriage, its becoming an increasingly outdated institution.
Its quite a petty argument really; of course gays are still on the side of right here but whether its called civil partnership or whether its called marriage isn't the end of the world.

Sure, but many places (including most of America) don't have civil partnerships for same sex couples.

[Eddie Teach]

That was never a problem for me.  I was rather open about playing with action figure, My Little Pony, toy guns, and Barbies.

I played with Barbies too. Course, they were naked. 

[Caliga]

The social change is not as big as you think. You are arguing from a perspective of a white upper middle class educated secular Canadian - it's quite different in Alabama or Poland

It's not, say, Alabama vs. Massachusetts, but rather rural vs. sub/urban.  Why do you think the gay marriage vote in Maine went the way it did despite the fact that Maine is located in "liberal New England"?

[garbon]

New England is not really a liberal as purported.

[Caliga]

New England is not really a liberal as purported.

Especially not in its rural extremeties, which would include nearly all of Maine.  Maine's "cities" are towns by Massachusetts standards.