News:

And we're back!

Main Menu

Comparison of Han and Roman Empires?

Started by Queequeg, March 27, 2009, 11:40:48 PM

Previous topic - Next topic
Print
Go Down Pages1 2 3 4 5
User actions

Queequeg

March 27, 2009, 11:40:48 PM
Lately I've been getting a bit more interested in China (mostly due to Fallows' excellent blog at the Atlantic, and when I stumbled upon this odd Wikipedia article comparing the Han and Chinese Empire ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_Roman_and_Han_Empires ) I started thinking how interesting it would be to read a book on the subject; two Empires, both alike in dignity, ruling over two of the greatest parts of the world in (relatively) similar ways and (eventually, with the Roman adoption of heavy cavalry) even fighting in similar ways.  Would also find this interesting as I want to know more about Steppe history of the period (the Chinese interaction with the Xiongnu seems particularly interesting).

Any books to recommend on Han history?  Any great history books specifically draw comparisons?
Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

Queequeg

#1
March 27, 2009, 11:52:40 PM
Also, is it just me, or would some kind of R:TW (or, to be honest, a Europa Barbarorum) that included Europe, the Middle East, India AND China from about 300 BC to the birth of Christ be about the coolest fucking thing ever?
Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

grumbler

#2
March 28, 2009, 02:22:53 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on March 27, 2009, 11:52:40 PM
Also, is it just me, or would some kind of R:TW (or, to be honest, a Europa Barbarorum) that included Europe, the Middle East, India AND China from about 300 BC to the birth of Christ be about the coolest fucking thing ever?
Dunno how you would account for the insularity of the Chinese, though.  China was pretty much in a position to conquer the world several times, but always drew back because The World was "icky."
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Monoriu

#3
March 28, 2009, 03:28:55 AM Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 03:33:36 AM by Monoriu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zizhi_Tongjian

I read this when I was a kid.  The book is epic in scale.  Only a part is on the Han dynasty.  Pretty comprehensive, but it has nothing on the Romans. 

Oh and, don't trust Romance of the 3 kingdoms as a history source  ;)

Syt

#5
March 28, 2009, 05:07:13 AM
Quote from: Lucidor on March 28, 2009, 04:59:49 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 28, 2009, 03:28:55 AM
Romans of the 3 kingdoms
:D

That would be Rome: Total War, where you played as Julii, Brutii or Claudii (?)
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

KRonn

#6
March 28, 2009, 05:30:09 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 28, 2009, 02:22:53 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on March 27, 2009, 11:52:40 PM
Also, is it just me, or would some kind of R:TW (or, to be honest, a Europa Barbarorum) that included Europe, the Middle East, India AND China from about 300 BC to the birth of Christ be about the coolest fucking thing ever?
Dunno how you would account for the insularity of the Chinese, though.  China was pretty much in a position to conquer the world several times, but always drew back because The World was "icky."
I'm amazed that neither China especially, nor Japan found and settled/traded/got resources from North America. Both very advanced tech and societies, and pretty much just had to follow the coastline to N. America. Maybe they made some journeys, probably did, but I'm not aware of any signicificant history there.

Monoriu

#7
March 28, 2009, 06:05:09 PM

Quote
I'm amazed that neither China especially, nor Japan found and settled/traded/got resources from North America. Both very advanced tech and societies, and pretty much just had to follow the coastline to N. America. Maybe they made some journeys, probably did, but I'm not aware of any signicificant history there.


China was so large and self-sufficient that there was no pressure to get resources from elsewhere.  It had everything it wanted.

PDH

#8
March 28, 2009, 06:07:23 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 28, 2009, 06:05:09 PM
China was so large and self-sufficient that there was no pressure to get resources from elsewhere.  It had everything it wanted.
Hell, it wasn't until the Brits made the Chinese into a nation of drug addicts that they even began buying foreign goods and letting that sweet, sweet gold of theirs leave the country.
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
-Umberto Eco

-------
"I'm pretty sure my level of depression has nothing to do with how much of a fucking asshole you are."

-CdM

Razgovory

#10
March 28, 2009, 06:37:13 PM
Quote from: KRonn on March 28, 2009, 05:30:09 PM

I'm amazed that neither China especially, nor Japan found and settled/traded/got resources from North America. Both very advanced tech and societies, and pretty much just had to follow the coastline to N. America. Maybe they made some journeys, probably did, but I'm not aware of any signicificant history there.

It's a big ocean.  The Chinese didn't even know Japan was there for good while.  I guess they were just homebodies.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

The Brain

#11
March 28, 2009, 06:46:38 PM
Quote from: KRonn on March 28, 2009, 05:30:09 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 28, 2009, 02:22:53 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on March 27, 2009, 11:52:40 PM
Also, is it just me, or would some kind of R:TW (or, to be honest, a Europa Barbarorum) that included Europe, the Middle East, India AND China from about 300 BC to the birth of Christ be about the coolest fucking thing ever?
Dunno how you would account for the insularity of the Chinese, though.  China was pretty much in a position to conquer the world several times, but always drew back because The World was "icky."
I'm amazed that neither China especially, nor Japan found and settled/traded/got resources from North America. Both very advanced tech and societies, and pretty much just had to follow the coastline to N. America. Maybe they made some journeys, probably did, but I'm not aware of any signicificant history there.

The Europeans made the great journeys of discovery because they wanted access to the riches of the Indies and China. The Chinese had no similar carrot.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Camerus

#12
March 28, 2009, 07:50:02 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 28, 2009, 06:05:09 PM

China was so large and self-sufficient that there was no pressure to get resources from elsewhere.  It had everything it wanted.

Yup, and that of course helped lead to China's incredible insularity.  For instance in 1793, Emperor Qian Long sent his famous letter George III, telling him, "as your Ambassador can see for himself, we possess all things. I set no value on objects strange or ingenious, and have no use for your country's manufactures."  Of course, the next 100 years would show the idiocy of that mentality....

Valmy

#13
March 28, 2009, 07:53:58 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 28, 2009, 06:05:09 PM
China was so large and self-sufficient that there was no pressure to get resources from elsewhere.  It had everything it wanted.

Which was why everybody else kept invading.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

citizen k

#14
March 28, 2009, 08:03:36 PM


http://www.amazon.com/Records-Grand-Historian-Han-Dynasty/dp/0231081650

from wiki:
QuoteZhang Qian (張騫; Wade-Giles Chang Ch'ien) was an imperial envoy to the world outside of China in the 2nd century BCE, during the time of the Han Dynasty. He was the first official diplomat to bring back reliable information about Central Asia to the Chinese imperial court, then under Emperor Wu of Han, and played an important pioneering role in the Chinese colonization and conquest of the region now known as Xinjiang. Today Zhang Qian's travels are associated with the major route of transcontinental trade, the Silk Road. In essence, his missions opened up to China the many kingdoms and products of a part of the world then unknown to the Chinese. Zhang Qian's accounts of his explorations of Central Asia are detailed in the Early Han historical chronicles, Records of the Grand Historian or Shiji, compiled by Sima Qian in the 1st century BCE . Today Zhang Qian is considered a national hero and revered for the key role he played in opening China to the world of commercial trade.
Print
Go Up Pages1 2 3 4 5
User actions