Labour Slumps to 3rd in poll

[Barrister]

Ok, I shall be baited.

BB...when googling, do more than read the front page.

according to the Socialist International:

The Socialist International is the worldwide organisation of social democratic, socialist and labour parties. It currently brings together 170 political parties and organisations from all continents. (List of members in full)

Thus, the NDP is not necessarily socialist based on your argument. And, your honour, in anycase, we do not know when that list was last updated.

I can't believe you're being baited into this argument again.

I would say the section you quoted pretty much makes my point for me.  The organization Socialist International accepts members that describe themselves as any of social democratic, socialist, or labour.  So clearly those three labels all mean roughly the same set of values, since all three can easily co-habitate in one general organization.

The three terms are synonymous.

The only other option is that there are clearly defined differences between the three terms - but then what are they?  Are why can the three happily co-exist in the sam umbrella organization?

[Ed Anger]

Why do Americans hate Labour?

I don't either.  I don't even get the Brown hate.

he looks like a walking sack of shit.

[Barrister]

since to trot out my favourite canard from Canadian politics, they are both socialist parties as witnessed by their membership in Socialist International.

http://www.socialistinternational.org/viewArticle.cfm?ArticlePageID=931

Okay.  You're right

But I still support the Liberals.  At one of your elections someone posted an online quiz to find which party you should vote for.  The Liberals are the only party in those for which I've got 100%.  That means something

Heh - I'm mostly teasing you, since I figured that you were no fan of the 'Stache.





My own international political preferences are somewhat mixed.  On the one hand as someone who came of political age in a populist protest party, I have a real fondness for non-racist populist protest parties.  But as someone who is now a member of a mainline centre-right party, I also like those parties.  So I guess I can forgive you liking both a Labour and a Liberal party, despite each having such very different political origins and traditions.

[Agelastus]

Wrong. They're up 5 points.

Which proves the wrongness of polls in general really.

Polls are crap; I am yet to be convinced that they are a reliable meterstick for how general elections will turn out, even if they have improved since 1992.

If it is correct, however, and remained that way (which it won't,of course, as we are not out of the season of conference bounces yet) then I think we would be looking at a hung parliament.

[Sheilbh]

The only other option is that there are clearly defined differences between the three terms - but then what are they?  Are why can the three happily co-exist in the sam umbrella organization?

Some of it's to do with history and some of it's ideology.

The difference between Labour and the Socialists, Social Democrats is that the former parties (such as in the UK, Norway, I believe, Australia) were founded by the unions.  They are a far better bridge of working class unionism and intellectual Fabian style socialism than the Socialists and Social Democrats.

[Sheilbh]

My own international political preferences are somewhat mixed.  On the one hand as someone who came of political age in a populist protest party, I have a real fondness for non-racist populist protest parties.  But as someone who is now a member of a mainline centre-right party, I also like those parties.  So I guess I can forgive you liking both a Labour and a Liberal party, despite each having such very different political origins and traditions.

Interesting.  I used to support the Lib Dems and still find some of it's stuff attractive.  But I'm drawn to the Labour left of politics by, of all things, a certain social conservatism that isn't at home in the Lib Dems.

[Barrister]

The only other option is that there are clearly defined differences between the three terms - but then what are they?  Are why can the three happily co-exist in the sam umbrella organization?

Some of it's to do with history and some of it's ideology.

The difference between Labour and the Socialists, Social Democrats is that the former parties (such as in the UK, Norway, I believe, Australia) were founded by the unions.  They are a far better bridge of working class unionism and intellectual Fabian style socialism than the Socialists and Social Democrats.

Well then all the more reason to like the NDP. :nelson

The NDP us a successor party to the old Co-operative Commonwealth Federation.  The CCF was pretty explicitly socialistm but had no particular ties to organized labour.  The CCF formed in the 1930s and probably had it's greatest success at that time, then slowly fading over time.

In the early 1960s however the CCF formed a formal alliance with the Canada Labour Congress, and the two then formed the New Democratic Party, which gives a formal role to organized labour within the party.

The Liberal Party of Canada by contrast has never had any such formal connection, and while occasionally it has picked up endorsements by individual unions it is much more traditionall been identified with certain large corporations (example the first, Power Corporation).

As for your second comment:

Interesting.  I used to support the Lib Dems and still find some of it's stuff attractive.  But I'm drawn to the Labour left of politics by, of all things, a certain social conservatism that isn't at home in the Lib Dems.

How much of that 'certain social conservatism' still exists in the Labour party, as opposed to its history?

The NDP here used to have that tradition.  Many of its earliest leaders and members came straight out of various church social justice movements.  J.S. Woodsworth being the primary example, but that tradition continued right up to Bill Blaikie, an ordained United Church minister.

But at least as an outsider looking in, I just don't see it any more.  The party has been more and more closely aligned with various NGO / protest group movements that 'social conservatism' is a detested word in the party.

[Sheilbh]

Well then all the more reason to like the NDP. :nelson

The NDP us a successor party to the old Co-operative Commonwealth Federation.  The CCF was pretty explicitly socialistm but had no particular ties to organized labour.  The CCF formed in the 1930s and probably had it's greatest success at that time, then slowly fading over time.

In the early 1960s however the CCF formed a formal alliance with the Canada Labour Congress, and the two then formed the New Democratic Party, which gives a formal role to organized labour within the party.

Interesting.  I didn't know any of that about the NDP, I thought they were general western prairie populists.

How much of that 'certain social conservatism' still exists in the Labour party, as opposed to its history?

I think it still exists.  Though by social conservatism I don't really mean things like gay rights on which there's a consensus in the UK or things like abortion which aren't political issues here.

It's true that like the NDP the Labour Party was hugely influenced by various Christian groups and still has an active Christian Socialist sort-of wing.  But what I mean, nowadays, is more to do with crime.  I mean Labour gets attacked for being overly authoritarian on crime.  Things like ASBOs are criticised by the civil libertarians in the Tory Party and far more strongly in the Lib Dems.  My view is that the reason Labour emphasises those things is because they overwhelmingly effect the poor.  It's fine if you're the Lib Dem MP for Winchester to think ASBOs aren't really that necessary because there's very little anti-social behaviour in posh towns like Winchester.  Where it is present is in the poorest estates of the country and there it can make people's lives misery.

I'm encouraged that the Tories' recent discovery of an interest in social justice is leading them to focus on the problems faced by the poorest socially rather than just economically - and I hope Labour can learn from this.  It's for that reason I like the Tory idea that we should make the tax system support marriage, because it's a social good.  Similarly I think they're right that we should overhaul the benefits system.  But at the same time I support Labour's 'respect agenda' because I think the problems of social breakdown aren't felt by Guardian reading liberals.

It's for that reason that I support Labour's nanny-stateism.  Another slightly related example would be that I don't think it's a failure of NHS funding that there are areas of Glasgow with a lower male life expectancy than in the Gaza Strip or most sub-Saharan African countries.  I think that's a social and a cultural failure that the state should try to address.  I think by educating about the dangers of smoking, discouraging excessive drinking and so on.  I think that a left-wing view of things being best addressed collectively, when they cause problems that have a communal effect, leads to a sort of social conservatism that's quite different from what I'd view as a slightly self-indulgent, liberal individualism - which I'd associate with the Lib Dems.

So yeah, Labour have the nanny state, the 'respect agenda' and other stuff like that which I think are socially conservative and that attract me to the party.

[Neil]

The CCF were prairie populists, whereas the Canadian Labour Congress took its orders from Moscow.

Actually, I knew some of the old-school farmer NDP types up in Northern Alberta.  They were totally different from the fifth-column stooges that dominated the NDP of the Cold War era.

Of course, it's also appropriate that some of the NDP types came from the United Church, given that organization has gone from being about Jesus to being about spreading hatred of the United States.

[Josephus]

We Canadians really hijack threads don't we.

The NDP may have had its roots in prairie populism and in the 70s under Broadbent, Bless Him, became allied with Oshawa, Unions, GM, and the Autoworker.

But that alliance pretty much ended, especially in Ontario, after Rae, and the Unions do not always necessarily support the NDP.

In my hometown of Oshawa, formerly Broadbent's riding, and a big GM town, the Conservatives have won this riding since the 80s, IIRC. This despite my yelling at my GM-working neighbours that they're not being class conscious and not voting for their common good.

All that happened is that they stopped inviting me to parties. But since they're now all laid-off....I just say "HA. Told you so. Let's see Harper bail you out of this."

They still don't invite me to parties and their homes, purchased with overtime salaries of over $100K/yr.

But, anyways, the NDP, in an attempt to gain votes at the expense of the ones they lost to the unions, started courting the Urban Vote. To do this, they eschewed some of their more economic concerns and started ranting and raving about Gay Marriages, Bicycles, Environment, Moustaches and shit that doesn't really interest me.

I'm only leftwing, economically. Don't really give a shit about other social issues. In Oshawa I vote NDP cause they stand a better chance of defeating the Conservatives here, but I have been known to vote Liberal on occasion when strategically necessary. Really I'm ABC, Anything But Conservative.

Hope this explains a few things about me, the NDP, and life in general.

Thanks and God Bless.

[derspiess]

Why do Americans hate Labour?

Prbly obvious in my case

[Admiral Yi]

In my hometown of Oshawa, formerly Broadbent's riding, and a big GM town, the Conservatives have won this riding since the 80s, IIRC. This despite my yelling at my GM-working neighbours that they're not being class conscious and not voting for their common good.

All that happened is that they stopped inviting me to parties. But since they're now all laid-off....I just say "HA. Told you so. Let's see Harper bail you out of this."

I don't get that argument when Fathead the Documentary Guy makes it and I don't get it now.

[saskganesh]

Why do Americans hate Labour?

Prbly obvious in my case

it's not. unless it's the fascism fetish.

[derspiess]

it's not. unless it's the fascism fetish.

Hmm, thought it was pretty clear I'm conservative.

[Fate]

  Europe just looks better and better this week.

Hurrah for big government right wingers? 

That's the only kind of right winger anywhere, so