Lisbon 2: Referendum in Ireland on the 2nd of October

[Martinus]

Also you are being a bit dishonest by demanding the EU members do the impossible.  You are asking 25 countries to come together and have them all agree to a treaty...and then if one of the member states have a referendum that votes it down to change it entirely even though the referendums do not specify what they even need to change in the first place.

How are they supposed to completely overhaul something they worked very hard to get 25 countries to agree to without even knowing what the problem is?  I am not even sure what exactly you want them to do.  Just getting 25 countries to agree to something is bad enough, the system you propose would make Renaissance Poland look like a well oiled political machine.

Actually, Renaissance Poland worked pretty well, thank you very much. It all went to hell in a handbasket around the mid-17th century, but in Renaissance it wasn't different from, say, the English Parliament in the Elisabethan era.

[Valmy]

Actually, Renaissance Poland worked pretty well, thank you very much. It all went to hell in a handbasket around the mid-17th century, but in Renaissance it wasn't different from, say, the English Parliament in the Elisabethan era.

Age of Enlightenment Poland then.

[Martinus]

Actually, Renaissance Poland worked pretty well, thank you very much. It all went to hell in a handbasket around the mid-17th century, but in Renaissance it wasn't different from, say, the English Parliament in the Elisabethan era.

Age of Enlightenment Poland then.

I'd say Baroque would be more correct. By the time Age of Enlightenment reached Poland (about mid-18th century), there were attempts to reform and modernize the state again, but they were too late.

[Valmy]

I'd say Baroque would be more correct. By the time Age of Enlightenment reached Poland (about mid-18th century), there were attempts to reform and modernize the state again, but they were too late.

In any case a system that requires double unanimity will simply not get anything done.

[Agelastus]

Of course what are other countries going to do having their foreign initiatives blocked by other countries?  That is pretty much what we in the US say when a country decides not to do what we want them to do.

But obviously they are taking the referendums seriously or they would not be launching yes campaigns and working to overcome them.  Perhaps they are not quite ready to completely overhaul treaties agreed to by all the members yet but they probably will eventually.

If they took the referendum seriously, they would not return within a few months with a treaty with marginal and paper differences.

And this is not just the Irish case. Given the vast majority of the Constitution Treaty is in the "streamlined" articles of the Lisbon Treaty, one has to say that they don't really give a damn about the expressed opinion of the French or Dutch public either.

The last part just baffles me.  Allowing parliament to vote on foreign policy instead of having it decided by a referendum means it is undemocratic and anybody who thinks otherwise is living in La-La land?  Well why the fuck don't you just have a plebescite on everything and forget those parliamentary elections things?  I cannot believe you would spout insane shit like that and then accuse ME of living in la-la land.

Please see below -

A 1987 decision of the Supreme Court established that ratification by Ireland of any significant amendment to the Treaties of the European Union requires an amendment to the Constitution of Ireland.[3] All Constitutional amendments require approval by referendum.

Please do not confuse the concept of basic foreign policy with EU treaties. Yes, there is an element of foreign policy in them (one cannot deny that it is an agreement between countries.) However, EU treaties have direct effects on the domestic law of member countries. The Irish are merely the most honest about this in that respect, and I have a great deal of respect for their supreme court, and the politicians who accepted this ruling, as a result.

If you actually understood where most policy initiatives in the EU come from, and had also taken note that the reason several countries do not hold referendums (even when, in at least one case, explicitly promised) is because they know that their citizens would vote against their (parliament's) wishes, then you would not make such a silly comment.

[Agelastus]

No we do not.  We have never had a referendum on international treaties before.  We elect people who negotiate those things and our representatives vote on them.  According to you that is anti-democratic.

Please give me an example of where the USA has negotiated and accepted an international treaty that affects both its' sovereignty and its domestic law - has the USA conceded certain sovereign powers to the UN, NAFTA or the OAS, for example? Those would be the closest analogous situations, as far as I am aware.

If you haven't, then I submit you have no clue as to whether a referendum would be called on an issue of such gravity. Even if their wasn't a federal one, I am certain that individual states would hold them to ascertain their citizens opinion of such a radical change in their country. I can easily see California holding one, for example. And although I am not an expert on politics in America, I do know that there are examples in your system where states send their representatives with instructions to vote in certain ways.

[Alatriste]

I'd say Baroque would be more correct. By the time Age of Enlightenment reached Poland (about mid-18th century), there were attempts to reform and modernize the state again, but they were too late.

Actually I read somewhere, can't remember exactly, but I was searching info on the connections between the Wars of the French Revolution and the partition of Poland, that Poland's neighbors didn't obliterate Poland because it was weak and divided. Rather the opposite, they were perfectly happy to leave Poland be as long as the country was too divided to get anything done. But when it seemed that the reforms could succeed... well, a Poland united under a real central authority would be dangerous.   

[Zanza]

A real gem from Paradox.

If you thought that Turtledove is whacko, then you must read how IG Farben created the European Union:

http://www.eu-facts.org/en/ireland/index.html
Read the PDF newspaper linked there.

[Neil]

When Enlightenment reached Europe, they decided that Poland had no place in an enlightened world.  It's interesting that Poland didn't return until the Dark Ages were underway, isn't it?

The existance of Poland is detrimental to the world.

[Neil]

A real gem from Paradox.

If you thought that Turtledove is whacko, then you must read how IG Farben created the European Union:

http://www.eu-facts.org/en/ireland/index.html
Read the PDF newspaper linked there.

'The Irish people would exchange their centuries-long independence...'

I guess the Irish aren't very good with history either.  They seem bound and determined to ensure that everyone that thinks of them as the ignorant, hateful clods that they are reputed to be.

[Cerr]

A real gem from Paradox.

If you thought that Turtledove is whacko, then you must read how IG Farben created the European Union:

http://www.eu-facts.org/en/ireland/index.html
Read the PDF newspaper linked there.

'The Irish people would exchange their centuries-long independence...'

I guess the Irish aren't very good with history either.  They seem bound and determined to ensure that everyone that thinks of them as the ignorant, hateful clods that they are reputed to be.

Where does it say that?

It is a very nutty site but I'm fairly sure the writer isn't Irish and probably not even living in Ireland. Some of the stuff he wrote doesn't seem like something an Irish person would write.
This for instance:

the people
of Ireland to exert their democratic
right is the result of a
century-long battle of the Irish
people for freedom and independence

I looked up the domain. It appears to be owned by someone in The Netherlands.

We do have our fair share of conspiracy nuts but this referendum seems to have attracted ones from around the World. I've had a couple of crazy English and American guys come up to me on the street telling me to vote no in order to stop the evil EU.

[Josquius]

The idea of a 'centuries long struggle for independance' in Ireland always makes me chuckle.

[Cerr]

 

[Neil]

A real gem from Paradox.

If you thought that Turtledove is whacko, then you must read how IG Farben created the European Union:

http://www.eu-facts.org/en/ireland/index.html
Read the PDF newspaper linked there.

'The Irish people would exchange their centuries-long independence...'

I guess the Irish aren't very good with history either.  They seem bound and determined to ensure that everyone that thinks of them as the ignorant, hateful clods that they are reputed to be.

Where does it say that?

That newspaper pdf thing.  Page 2, claim 7.

[Zanza]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1002/breaking1.htm

A premlinary national exit poll by Fine Gael suggests the Yes side, with 52 per cent, have just swung a victory over the No side, who are on 48 per cent.