Dark Ages Treasure Hoard Found

[BuddhaRhubarb]

No +5 holy avengers. 

How would anyone know? 

most people would burn at touching the holy avenger, no? I know all of Languish would. :p

[Malthus]

The key word here is "relative".   

To put it concretely, late 7th century/early 8th century Mercia was probably considerable more stable than Europe in the first half of the 20th century.   

However, it seems a reasonable supposition that people somehow forgetting where they put 6 kg of gold, largely consisting of decorative bits ripped off of swords, indicates a - certain lifestyle, which would not inaccurately be termed "dark ages".

There are a lot of suppositions buried in there - and not all of them are reasonable.
We appear to be dealing with someone who was not a king or ruler and yet has what even by modern standards has very impressive wealth.  And not just raw gold, but beautifully crafted items.  This the reasonable supposition is that we are looking at a society which is probably enjoying some signigificant level of material prosperity, and which is capable of sustaining a sufficiently complex economy and social structure to allow for the activity of a signigicant number of highly skilled and artistically talented craftsmen and artisans.

Beyond that, I one might advance such tentative suppositions as: the owner may have been a high-status war leader and the items the accumulated trophies of victory over a successful military career.  Such a career would hardly be unique to this time and place and history.

The existance of a high-class war leader with a considerable hoard of accumulated trophies indicates a lifestyle of conflict; the fact that this hoard was lost to his heirs indicates that success in this manner was rather unstable. The fact that this was hardly unique indicates that warfare and instability were a way of life for many. The fact that this "significant wealth" was mainly bestowed on objects of interest to the warrior elite rather than on items of civilian use also indicates the sort of society under discussion.

Isn't this sort of warlord-hoard exactly what one would expect from a "dark age"? Particularly when compared and contrasted to the sorts of remains of Roman Britian, where the treasures were commonly of a more civilian caste.

[Ed Anger]

No +5 holy avengers. 

How would anyone know? 

most people would burn at touching the holy avenger, no? I know all of Languish would. :p

I'm a Paladin with 18 charisma and 97 hit points. I can use my helm of disintegration and do one D4 damage as my half-elf mage wields his plus-five holy avenger.

[The Minsky Moment]

The existance of a high-class war leader with a considerable hoard of accumulated trophies indicates a lifestyle of conflict

Which would describe any society from beginning of civilization to early modern period.

the fact that this hoard was lost to his heirs indicates that success in this manner was rather unstable.

We don't whether "he" had heirs or whether it was lost assuming he had them.  If success in that "manner" were unstable, we would not expect to see this find in the first place.

The fact that this was hardly unique

What are you claiming here was not unique?

The fact that this "significant wealth" was mainly bestowed on objects of interest to the warrior elite rather than on items of civilian use also indicates the sort of society under discussion.

It indicates that it was a society where "those who fought" could obtain wealth and status - which would be the case of the entire medieval period, the Rennaissance (condottierri), the ancient world in the era of high Hellanism.

Isn't this sort of warlord-hoard exactly what one would expect from a "dark age"? Particularly when compared and contrasted to the sorts of remains of Roman Britian, where the treasures were commonly of a more civilian caste.

Except that other finds from Anglo-Saxon Britain are indeed of a "civilian" caste - or, to be more accurate ecclesiastical caste.  What this find indicates is that kind of craftsmanship and wealth was not the preserve of a few politically-favored monasteries or powerful kings.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Just to contribute my 2-groats worth.........

Anglo-Saxon Britain did indeed enjoy periods of great wealth and stability........one of the reasons why the Danes found it such a tempting target 

The hoard apparently dates from the 7th century, we await more precise dates. Mercia was still pagan for at least the first half of that century under the rule of the redoubtable King Penda (626-655). In wars with the (christian) Northumbrians he was responsible for the death of both King Edwin and King Oswald. He was finally killed in battle by King Oswy of Northumbria (not personally). His death more or less marked the end of paganism as a significant force in England.

So, maybe the hoard dates from the first half of that century......we'll find out sooner or later.

[Jaron]

Damn, Joans got Malthus on the ropes.

[Malthus]

Which would describe any society from beginning of civilization to early modern period.

Certainly every society had conflicts. But there is a difference between a society characterized by the warrior's mead-hall and one which contains organized armies.

We don't whether "he" had heirs or whether it was lost assuming he had them.  If success in that "manner" were unstable, we would not expect to see this find in the first place.

Generally, absent extraordinary situations or deliberate grave-offerings, people do not allow kilos of gold to simply vanish. It isn't a stretch to assume that a hoard composed of a warrior's acquisitions was lost to a warrior's fate - hidden to be recovered and not recovered because of defeat and death of the leader and all followers who knew where it was. 

What are you claiming here was not unique?

The career of a war-leader which you referenced. The "not unique' was your characterization.

It indicates that it was a society where "those who fought" could obtain wealth and status - which would be the case of the entire medieval period, the Rennaissance (condottierri), the ancient world in the era of high Hellanism.

It was not a society characterized by the *other* outputs of the ages you refer to - the great cities and high arts of Hellenism and the Renaissance.

That's exactly why the age was "dark". Lots of nifty gold - worked into sword-hilts and found in a warrior's hoard; wealth exclusively devoted to the violent.

Except that other finds from Anglo-Saxon Britain are indeed of a "civilian" caste - or, to be more accurate ecclesiastical caste.  What this find indicates is that kind of craftsmanship and wealth was not the preserve of a few politically-favored monasteries or powerful kings.

How do you know who it belonged to? It could easily have been the hoard of a 'powerful king'. Evidence lacks.

[Malthus]

Damn, Joans got Malthus on the ropes.

Better watch out Joan. Jaron agrees with you, pretty good evidence I'm right. 

[Malthus]

More neat treasure porn: http://www.flickr.com/photos/finds/sets/72157622378376316/

[The Minsky Moment]

Certainly every society had conflicts. But there is a difference between a society characterized by the warrior's mead-hall and one which contains organized armies.

It depends what you mean by "organized armies".  The Roman legions I would grant are worthy of the title, but what of the feudal levies or "Free Companies" of high medieval Europe or the aforementioned condottieri bands?  Other than swapping mead for plundered tuns of wine, we are talking about similar phenomena.

The Anglo-Saxons interestingly enough seem to come up with the idea of an organized militia (the fyrd) farily early on and under Alfred (somewhat later than the period of this find) put in place a very well organized military structure complete with a standing professional force, garrison troops, and militia.

It was not a society characterized by the *other* outputs of the ages you refer to - the great cities and high arts of Hellenism and the Renaissance.

But that area of the world had never known great cities - there were market centers and large garrison settlement, but nothing like the great urban centers of the East.  Even Roman London became fairly large in relative terms only because it an administrative-military center and complex implanted by a colonizing empire.  It was a city based on a functionary economy.

We know that late Anglo-Saxon England was a urbanized society in the sense that it was covered by a dense network of connected towns that peformed urban functions; this would prove a more stable platform for long-term urban growth and development than the Roman colonial model.  The question is how far back those towns go back into A-S history; the evidence is incomplete.  This find is suggestive as to that very question.  You keep focusing on the mysterious owner of this horde (assuming there is a single person).  What is more interesting IMO is what the very existence of these items implies about the underlying society that made them.  In particular it suggests that there existed a socio-economic infrastructure in place capable of producing high quality items in significant quantities - a fact not consistent with a backwards, entirely rural, subsistence economy.

That's exactly why the age was "dark". Lots of nifty gold - worked into sword-hilts and found in a warrior's hoard; wealth exclusively devoted to the violent.

But that is not so - we know that the monasteries and churches of A-S England were well-endowed with treasures of a very different sort.  So the overall picture is one of a varied society.

[Malthus]

It depends what you mean by "organized armies".  The Roman legions I would grant are worthy of the title, but what of the feudal levies or "Free Companies" of high medieval Europe or the aforementioned condottieri bands?  Other than swapping mead for plundered tuns of wine, we are talking about similar phenomena.

The Anglo-Saxons interestingly enough seem to come up with the idea of an organized militia (the fyrd) farily early on and under Alfred (somewhat later than the period of this find) put in place a very well organized military structure complete with a standing professional force, garrison troops, and militia.

Alfred is interesting exactly because his career marks the inflection-point of the dark ages in England - from being hunted through a swamp by bands of Vikings, to establishing proto-urban centres (the burgs) ... and re-introducing literacy outside of purely religious settings.

But that area of the world had never known great cities - there were market centers and large garrison settlement, but nothing like the great urban centers of the East.  Even Roman London became fairly large in relative terms only because it an administrative-military center and complex implanted by a colonizing empire.  It was a city based on a functionary economy.

Roman Britian had urban centres, paved roads, central government and centuries of relative stability. Where would a rational person prefer to live - in Roman Britain circa 200 A.D., or in Anglo-Saxon Mercia circa 700 A.D.?

We know that late Anglo-Saxon England was a urbanized society in the sense that it was covered by a dense network of connected towns that peformed urban functions; this would prove a more stable platform for long-term urban growth and development than the Roman colonial model.  The question is how far back those towns go back into A-S history; the evidence is incomplete.  This find is suggestive as to that very question.  You keep focusing on the mysterious owner of this horde (assuming there is a single person).

I focus on it because in the practice of archaeology, the *setting* of a find is just as suggestive of information as the *identity* of a find.

Archaeologists do not record the precise location of finds merely for the purpose of dating them, but rather to glean what information they can from the setting. A treasure buried with due ceremony as grave-goods differs from a treasure buried as a jumbled, furtive hoard.   

What is more interesting IMO is what the very existence of these items implies about the underlying society that made them.  In particular it suggests that there existed a socio-economic infrastructure in place capable of producing high quality items in significant quantities - a fact not consistent with a backwards, entirely rural, subsistence economy.

This is not true in the least: hoards equally rich in workmanship have been recovered from the graves of Siberian nomads. No-one accuses them of failing to be 'backwards" compared with settled civilization.

The presance of high-quality luxury goods does not indicate a lack of barbarism. Barbarians love high-quality luxury goods, and will pay well for them: often in the form of slaves taken from rivals. The mediteranian world's supply of slave-labor was well-stocked from this exact trade.

But that is not so - we know that the monasteries and churches of A-S England were well-endowed with treasures of a very different sort.  So the overall picture is one of a varied society.

... and nearly every single centre of monastic wealth was systematically sacked by the Vikings, nearly extinguishing literacy in England.

There is no doubt that by the late Anglo-Saxon period, particularly following the remarkable career of Alfred, Anglo-Saxon England was rebuilding an urban civilization and could not be characterized as 'dark ages'. But note the word rebuilding. England was recovering from absorbing two waves of highly destructive invaders - first the Saxons, then the Vikings. Between the two they had very nearly extinguished urbanism, literacy, central government, peace and order over long periods of time, etc. from the land; it is not mere Alfredian propaganda that portrays his reign as a return to civilization.

This is not to deny that there was a recovery of sorts following the initial Saxon invasions, conversion to Christianity, monastic establishment, etc. with writers like the Venerable Bede. But it was shallow and soon under attack by "hard' barbarians who very nearly succeeded in stamping it out. Alfred himself was reduced at one point to living in a hut in a swamp while Viking bands looted and killed over Wessex at will. That's what a 'dark age' looks like.

Even at their worst, the Nazis never threatened to actually eliminate literacy from Europe. In some ways of course they did worse than that. What makes the period from the fall of Roman Britian to the rise of Alfredian England properly characterized as a "dark age" is the reality of, and realistic threat of, absolute collapse of many of the indicia of what we consider 'civilization". Mind you, I'd probably rather live in a 'dark age" than under the Nazis!

[PRC]

The television report I saw on this last night mentioned that the gold used in the pieces was likely from Byzantium and the gems from Sri Lanka.

[The Minsky Moment]

Alfred is interesting exactly because his career marks the inflection-point of the dark ages in England - from being hunted through a swamp by bands of Vikings, to establishing proto-urban centres (the burgs) ... and re-introducing literacy outside of purely religious settings.

That's a claim but not a very convincing one- alfred was important but he was not some colossus single-handedly dragging a backwards people into a radically new era.  Rather, he built on already existing institutions and foundations.  Alfred's life story as we have received it is basically propaganda he wrote or had others write at his direction and he both emphasized the adversity he had to face and his success is overcoming.

But if one takes an early A-S monarch like say Offa - then you have someone over a century before Alfred who far from being hunted in swamps is a major player in European diplomacy, mints silver coinage, erects very substantial fortifications, and founds many new churches and monasteries.

Where would a rational person prefer to live - in Roman Britain circa 200 A.D., or in Anglo-Saxon Mercia circa 700 A.D.?

We had this discussion before.  No question that the aggregate level of material culture was higher in Roman Britain.  But given the choice between being a free pesant proprietor, and a being bound slave or colonus but having access to some decent quality manufactured pottery, I personally think I would prefer to go without the decorative pots.

I focus on it because in the practice of archaeology, the *setting* of a find is just as suggestive of information as the *identity* of a find.

Sure but that requires interpretation based on solid facts, not wild guesses and suppositions.  When professional archaeologists in this field start drawing conclusions, I will pay attention, but that is not anywhere near happening.

The presance of high-quality luxury goods does not indicate a lack of barbarism. Barbarians love high-quality luxury goods, and will pay well for them: often in the form of slaves taken from rivals. The mediteranian world's supply of slave-labor was well-stocked from this exact trade.

Except that these items were manufactured locally.

... and nearly every single centre of monastic wealth was systematically sacked by the Vikings, nearly extinguishing literacy in England.

There is no doubt that by the late Anglo-Saxon period, particularly following the remarkable career of Alfred, Anglo-Saxon England was rebuilding an urban civilization and could not be characterized as 'dark ages'. But note the word rebuilding. England was recovering from absorbing two waves of highly destructive invaders - first the Saxons, then the Vikings. Between the two they had very nearly extinguished urbanism, literacy, central government, peace and order over long periods of time, etc. from the land; it is not mere Alfredian propaganda that portrays his reign as a return to civilization.

Now you are arguing against yourself.  You concede that pre Viking invasion A-S England had a literate, sophisticated elite culture but then seek to claim that such culture existd only after Alfred.

I don't dispute the Viking invasions had a terribly negative impact on A-S civilization but that happened after the period of this find.

[The Minsky Moment]

The television report I saw on this last night mentioned that the gold used in the pieces was likely from Byzantium and the gems from Sri Lanka.

If true that would be very interesting b/c it would suggest that is generally understood to be true of the later period (that there was long-range trade and exchange going on - at least in precious non-bulky items) was also going on in the 7th and 8th centuries as well. 

[Valmy]

No +5 holy avengers. 

An intelligent dancing +5 Holy Avenger of Saxon Slaying.