Russian-Belarussian Wargames - "West 2009"

[Neil]

Well of course.
What else is the UN but a collection of states? United nations so to speak.

A large NGO.

God, they breed them stupid up in coal-mining country, don't they?

[Neil]

This is why Iceland didn't join until 1949, we refused to declare war on Germany.

And nobody cared about Iceland's pro-Nazi stance, because they were occupied for the whole war anyways.

[Zoupa]

Well, yes. 

I mean I don't see how we could have ended the no-fly zones, you know, with them being enforced by F 16s from the Alabama national guard and not a bunch of rafales from Marseille.

The WMD inspections were being conducted by Norwegians, that didn't stop you.

I must be on crack, I have no idea what the fuck you've been talking about for the last 5 posts...

Stop us from what?

[Viking]

This is why Iceland didn't join until 1949, we refused to declare war on Germany.

And nobody cared about Iceland's pro-Nazi stance, because they were occupied for the whole war anyways.

We got invaded by the allies. That would usually result in a country joining the axis, but no, we didn't.

[Sahib]

Well of course.
What else is the UN but a collection of states? United nations so to speak.

A large NGO.

God, they breed them stupid up in coal-mining country, don't they?

NGO as in "non-governmental organization"?  WTH are you talking about?

[Neil]

We got invaded by the allies. That would usually result in a country joining the axis, but no, we didn't.

Of course.  You were already conquered.

[Viking]

We got invaded by the allies. That would usually result in a country joining the axis, but no, we didn't.

Of course.  You were already conquered.

By whom?

[Josquius]

Your orginal post was that the UN is good at getting states to stop cross-border invasions, wasn't it?  As as has been pointed out, there have been tons of cross-border invasions the UN has not gotten states to do anything about.  If you're talking about the two "UN successes," then your argument is reduced to "the US is good at getting the US to stop cross-border invasions (except when they don't) and the UK and France are good at getting themselves to stop cross-border invasions (except when they don't).

Except in only a few of your examples was the UN needed to send aid to the defender, in most they handled things themselves. And as I pointed out in many of your examples the UN was eventually a big part of the peace process.
And as I've said a few times the cold war world was a very different place to the modern world. There's very little risk of a small war between two third world shit holes erupting into world war 3 these days.

[Neil]

We got invaded by the allies. That would usually result in a country joining the axis, but no, we didn't.

Of course.  You were already conquered.

By whom?

By the Allies, the forces of good.

[Viking]

We got invaded by the allies. That would usually result in a country joining the axis, but no, we didn't.

Of course.  You were already conquered.

By whom?

By the Allies, the forces of good.

pathetic invasion... the captain in charge of the invasion  knocked on the PM's door and asked for permission to invade

[Berkut]

We got invaded by the allies. That would usually result in a country joining the axis, but no, we didn't.

Of course.  You were already conquered.

By whom?

By the Allies, the forces of good.

pathetic invasion... the captain in charge of the invasion  knocked on the PM's door and asked for permission to invade

Who knows that really happened - you are the guy who thinks the UN was formed prior to WW2.

[Viking]

We got invaded by the allies. That would usually result in a country joining the axis, but no, we didn't.

Of course.  You were already conquered.

By whom?

By the Allies, the forces of good.

pathetic invasion... the captain in charge of the invasion  knocked on the PM's door and asked for permission to invade

Who knows that really happened - you are the guy who thinks the UN was formed prior to WW2.

I did not claim that the UN was formed prior to WWII. If I were grumbler I'd be going on about strawmen and ad hominem attacks.

[Berkut]

I did not claim that the UN was formed prior to WWII. If I were grumbler I'd be going on about strawmen and ad hominem attacks.

You are retracting your claim that the UN won WW2 then?

Or is my error in the presumption that the UN would have to actually exist in order to win a war, and hence must have been formed prior to said war, as opposed to when it was actually formed, in 1945?

It is cool - everyone makes mistakes. I am sure lots of people were not aware that the UN was formed in 1945. Sounds like one of those funny questions Leno could ask random people on the street...

[Valmy]

You are retracting your claim that the UN won WW2 then?

Well there is no doubt that the UN was a continuation of the wartime alliance and FDR clearly intended for the alliance to become the new League of Nations.  Heck one of the main reasons everybody rushed to declare war on Germany and Japan in the last couple months of the war was just so they could join the UN.

However, it simply was not the UN as we know it.  It was not like the Security Council met in 1939 to vote on UN Resolution 1: The Really Mean Letter to Germany about the invasion of Poland that was then vetoed by the Soviet Union.

[Viking]

I did not claim that the UN was formed prior to WWII. If I were grumbler I'd be going on about strawmen and ad hominem attacks.

You are retracting your claim that the UN won WW2 then?

Or is my error in the presumption that the UN would have to actually exist in order to win a war, and hence must have been formed prior to said war, as opposed to when it was actually formed, in 1945?

It is cool - everyone makes mistakes. I am sure lots of people were not aware that the UN was formed in 1945. Sounds like one of those funny questions Leno could ask random people on the street...

Text of the German Instrument of Surrender (the scan was too big).

Only this text in English is authoritative


Act of Military Surrender


1. We the undersigned, acting by authority of the German High Command, hereby surrender unconditionally to the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force and simultaneously to the Soviet High Command all forces on land, sea, and in the air who are at this date under German control.

2. The German High Command will at once issue orders to all German military, naval and air authorities and to all forces under German control to cease active operations at 2301 hours Central European time on 8 May and to remain in the positions occupied at that time. No ship, vessel, or aircraft is to be scuttled, or any damage done to their hull, machinery or equipment.

3. The German High Command will at once issue to the appropriate commanders, and ensure the carrying out of any further orders issued by the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force and by the Soviet High Command.

4. This act of military surrender is without prejudice to, and will be superseded by any general instrument of surrender imposed by, or on behalf of the United Nations and applicable to Germany and the German armed forces as a whole.[ 2 ]

5. In the event of the German High Command or any of the forces under their control failing to act in accordance with this Act of Surrender, the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force and the Soviet High Command will take such punitive or other action as they deem appropriate.


Signed at Rheims at 0241 France on the 7th day of May, 1945.


On behalf of the German High Command. Alfred Jodl

in the presence of

On behalf of the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force. Walter Bedell Smith

On behalf of the Soviet High Command. Ivan Sousloparov

Major General, French Army (Witness)
François Sevez

I'd like to refer to article 4 of the Instrument of Surrender

4. This act of military surrender is without prejudice to, and will be superseded by any general instrument of surrender imposed by, or on behalf of the United Nations and applicable to Germany and the German armed forces as a whole.[ 2 ]

Translation: We the Allied Expeditionary Force and the Soviet High Command accept your surrender on behalf of the United Nations.