British citizen creates national uproar in Quebec

[Valmy]

Being bilingual? Sure. Becoming "wholly anglo*"? Not so much.

*as much as one can be said to be wholly anglo, in this country.

Ok I did not realize that was the litmus test.  If they continue to learn two languages then that is simply something the United States can put to good use in dealings with the Spanish speaking countries in this hemisphere.  I have my doubts they will continue to do so, learning even their native language is more than most Americans manage these days, but more power to them.

I misunderstood what you were saying: I thought you were saying why would they ever bother to learn English since everything in their neighborhood was in Spanish.

[garbon]

I misunderstood what you were saying: I thought you were saying why would they ever bother to learn English since everything in their neighborhood was in Spanish.

No not at all.  I was simply trying to bring up a positive example of two languages co-existing.

[Grallon]

... the collective rights of the majority of francophones in Quebec should trump the individual rights of the anglos and immigrants in Quebec, while at the same time the collective right of the anglo majority in Canada should be ignored in favour of the indivdual right of the minority of Quebec within the federation?

I see you're still working under the assumption that Canada is a unitary country composed of one people (which is, btw, what I described above).  Except that it is not.  Canada is a federation, that is a union of soveraign polities; one of which happens to be the homeland of *another* people, ours.  This means that there are 2 majorities at play here: one anglophone and one francophone.  And considering that the constitution of this federation recognises full soveraignty to the member states when it comes to linguistic and cultural matters, you can see for yourself that what applies in one case does not apply in another.

Now I've tried to provide historical context so that you people would understand where we are coming from when it comes to language laws.  After that, whether or not you choose to aknowledge the legitimacy of the position is immaterial since we, as a majority, find it quite legitimate; enough to justify said laws. 

There has been linguistic peace in Quebec for a generation, and if those anglophones living here have adapted to the mild regulations this majority has imposed on them, then I'm sure you'll realize how irritating we find the rethoric against these when coming from outsiders who are neither directly involved nor affected by said laws.  Especially when one understands that the anglo minority in Quebec isn't deprived of anything.  English isn't baned from public display, it's merely required to be less conspicuous.  Anglo institutions aren't forbidden but merely asked to aknowledge the fact they exist and operate in a primarily francophone context.

I must add that despite all these (insert, according to some, grossly derogatory-nazi inspired-hyperbolic) impositions, english is still making headways, further endangering our survival as a group.  And despite your fondest wishes, despite very real efforts made in the past to see us disappear, we will not disappear to please you; or to comfort you in your worldview.

I'll leave you to ponder the following text:

In a phrase that gave bitter offence Durham described French Canadians as "a people with no history and no literature." He believed the only solution to the ethnic problem was the assimilation of the French group into the Anglo Saxon. The national character of their province must inevitably be that of the British race.

G.

[garbon]

I must add that despite all these (insert, according to some, grossly derogatory-nazi inspired-hyperbolic) impositions, english is still making headways, further endangering our survival as a group.  And despite your fondest wishes, despite very real efforts made in the past to see us disappear, we will not disappear to please you; or to comfort you in your worldview.

I suppose it doesn't really matter why you disappear.

[Grallon]

I suppose it doesn't really matter why you disappear.

Was this intended to shatter me?   

Foolish boy, as if anyone's life had any meaning whatsoever.  :shakes head:



G.

[garbon]

Was this intended to shatter me?   

Foolish boy, as if anyone's life had any meaning whatsoever.  :shakes head:

G.

How exactly did you get any of that from what I said?

[crazy canuck]

I this captures the nub of the difference.  In the British tradition, there is no such animal as "group rights" - the very idea is absurd.  Clearly, the French tradition (at least as maintained in Canada) is not about the kinds of human rights that the rest of the western world has evolved to, but is instead about the rights of the collective.  Marx used to talk about the rights of the collective all the time.

So, Gral et al, you guys simply won't be able to explain why you were all present in Canada before the Anglos, because outside Quebec we don't think of ourselves as just a part of the group, but as individuals.  It is more than just a difference between French and English (the French in France do not talk much about the rights of the collective, for instance).  I, for one, cannot even accept that such a stand is logical, let alone correct, so you will never be able to convince me that Zoupa was in Canada before the British arrived, no matter how hard you try.  It simply does not compute in my world-view.  That doesn't make it wrong, of course.  I have the same problem with the highly religious, who may also be correct even though I cannot accept their claims as logically valid.

That is a very interesting way of looking at it.  As I was reading your comment I was reflecting on the arguments made by "first nations" here in Canada asserting aboriginal title.  It strikes me as very similar logic  - rights based on status rather then an based on the western tradition of individual rights.

[crazy canuck]

Garbon, I have scanned the thread but I didnt see answer from Oex to the question you posed to me this morning.  I would be very interested to see what he has to say about that.

[garbon]

Garbon, I have scanned the thread but I didnt see answer from Oex to the question you posed to me this morning.  I would be very interested to see what he has to say about that.

As would I.

[Zoupa]

To my mind, the issue is one of how much interference in individual rights is justified in pursuit of "national" or group rights.

If one accepts the thesis that there is some value in seeing the world in a particular way by speaking a particular language (and I do), then it would be a real shame if that language were to die out.

On the other hand, if one accepts that thesis, then it is a real imposition and deprivation of rights by the state for the state to, in effect, choose what language you, as an individual, will speak in. 

OTOH, if the matter is merely that language is a handy ethnic shibboleth or badge of identity, then the matter becomes clear: it is an obvious and inexcusable imposition by the state to require ethnic conformity by the individual, if they do not wish to so conform.

How does the state, in effect, choose what language you, as an individual, will speak in? 

We provide free education in english to the anglophone community and folks coming here from other provinces. Private education in english is available to anyone.

How does the qc state control what you will speak? 

[Berkut]

How does the qc state control what you will speak? 

Can a company in Quebec choose to do business in only English if they wish?

[Grey Fox]

How does the qc state control what you will speak? 

Can a company in Quebec choose to do business in only English if they wish?

No. The Business language of Quebec is French. Atleast, officialy.

Unofficialy, if no one complains & you write everything official in French, you could do the rest in English.

[Berkut]

How does the qc state control what you will speak? 

Can a company in Quebec choose to do business in only English if they wish?

No. The Business language of Quebec is French.

Well, there you go then.

[The Brain]

I don't know if French-Canadians have a history or literature but they sure suck. They're like Serbs or something: unloved, unwanted and unpleasant.

[Syt]

I don't know if French-Canadians have a history or literature but they sure suck. They're like Serbs or something: unloved, unwanted and unpleasant.

At least in Vienna the Serbs are much more sufferable and pleasant than the hard nationalist Croats.