British citizen creates national uproar in Quebec

[Grey Fox]

Garbon's question is quite hard to answer & there isn't a consensus on it either. I don't know how to answer it either. Maybe Oex will be.

[Berkut]

So you are assuming that I am lying

Take a deep breath and re-read your posts.

What I am assuming is that you havent actually thought this through and your responses have been a bit simplistic.

OK, fair enough. But your response was to reject my *personal* views on the basis that this kind of thing happens in the US as well. While that is true, it does not address my personal view at all, since my view of it when happens in the US isn't really any different than when it is happening in Quebec, and I would make the same argument to someone here telling us that we really need to protect English from the damn immigrants who come here and refuse to learn the language.

[Berkut]

If you can put yourself fully into that mindset I think you can better understand the thinking of what motivates, at least in part, the Quebec language laws.

So here's my question. If people in Quebec so dearly want to hold onto French, what's preventing (/threatening) them? I mean I can understand certain laws for the government (like having a law that says all government signs in Quebec must be in both languages and government employees should speak both) as if the government isn't using French, it'll be hard to keep...but I'm not sure why you'd need laws beyond that.

indeed - it is the insistence that Quebec be strictly uni-lingual that puzzles me. I find the idea that people get upset that government forms in southern California are written in Spanish as well as English rather bizarre, and I find the idea that Quebec thinks that the only way to protect their "culture" is to insist that Quebec is NOT a bilingual area equally odd, especially to the extent of insisting that private companies not be allowed to conduct business in another language, or to advertise in other languages in favor of French, if that is what they desired.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

If you can put yourself fully into that mindset I think you can better understand the thinking of what motivates, at least in part, the Quebec language laws.

So here's my question. If people in Quebec so dearly want to hold onto French, what's preventing (/threatening) them? I mean I can understand certain laws for the government (like having a law that says all government signs in Quebec must be in both languages and government employees should speak both) as if the government isn't using French, it'll be hard to keep...but I'm not sure why you'd need laws beyond that.

indeed - it is the insistence that Quebec be strictly uni-lingual that puzzles me. I find the idea that people get upset that government forms in southern California are written in Spanish as well as English rather bizarre, and I find the idea that Quebec thinks that the only way to protect their "culture" is to insist that Quebec is NOT a bilingual area equally odd, especially to the extent of insisting that private companies not be allowed to conduct business in another language, or to advertise in other languages in favor of French, if that is what they desired.

because theoretical and practical bilinguality leads to effective monolinguality over time.
I'll again use my own country as an example: when belgium was formed both dutch and french were officially considered equal. The reality however, was that dutch wasn't used in and even shunned by government due to the fact that everyone who was someone in Belgium spoke french. The result: no higher education in Dutch, no courts in Dutch, no constitution in Dutch, no government in Dutch, "et pour les flamans la même chose".
In such situations bilinguality is percieved as equal to de facto monolinguality.
While the political situation in Quebec isn't as dire as the flemish situation even 50 years ago I'm guessing the feeling remains the same. For if Quebec was made totally bilingual why would anyone entering the place bother with the French? Even if they entered to spend the rest of their lives there.
Very different from California cause everyone knows the migrants will eventually assimilate into english.

I'm just taking a guess here though.

[garbon]

While the political situation in Quebec isn't as dire as the flemish situation even 50 years ago I'm guessing the feeling remains the same. For if Quebec was made totally bilingual why would anyone entering the place bother with the French? Even if they entered to spend the rest of their lives there.

Oh, so it'd be immigrants who are the ones threatening the status of French in Quebec.

Very different from California cause everyone knows the migrants will eventually assimilate into english.

I don't know, I mean Spanish is pretty strong in my neighborhood. Why we have stores and billboards that only have things posted up in Spanish. 

[DisturbedPervert]

Very different from California cause everyone knows the migrants will eventually assimilate into english.

Not so sure about that

[ulmont]

Very different from California cause everyone knows the migrants will eventually assimilate into english.

Not so sure about that

I have faith in America's eventually to more or less* assimilate everyone eventually.

Tangentially related:

Michael Skinner, a law-enforcement officer with the U.S. Forest Service in Colorado, said warning signs of possible drug trafficking include "tortilla packaging, beer cans, Spam, tuna, Tecate beer cans," and campers who play Spanish music. He said the warning includes people speaking Spanish.

http://www.durangoherald.com/sections/News/2009/08/29/Forest_Service_retracts_warning/

*Obviously, St. Patrick's Day, Columbus Day, and Cinco de Mayo celebrations will be retained, along with better food than the American baseline.

[Malthus]

because theoretical and practical bilinguality leads to effective monolinguality over time.
I'll again use my own country as an example: when belgium was formed both dutch and french were officially considered equal. The reality however, was that dutch wasn't used in and even shunned by government due to the fact that everyone who was someone in Belgium spoke french. The result: no higher education in Dutch, no courts in Dutch, no constitution in Dutch, no government in Dutch, "et pour les flamans la même chose".
In such situations bilinguality is percieved as equal to de facto monolinguality.
While the political situation in Quebec isn't as dire as the flemish situation even 50 years ago I'm guessing the feeling remains the same. For if Quebec was made totally bilingual why would anyone entering the place bother with the French? Even if they entered to spend the rest of their lives there.
Very different from California cause everyone knows the migrants will eventually assimilate into english.

I'm just taking a guess here though.

To my mind, the issue is one of how much interference in individual rights is justified in pursuit of "national" or group rights.

If one accepts the thesis that there is some value in seeing the world in a particular way by speaking a particular language (and I do), then it would be a real shame if that language were to die out.

On the other hand, if one accepts that thesis, then it is a real imposition and deprivation of rights by the state for the state to, in effect, choose what language you, as an individual, will speak in. 

OTOH, if the matter is merely that language is a handy ethnic shibboleth or badge of identity, then the matter becomes clear: it is an obvious and inexcusable imposition by the state to require ethnic conformity by the individual, if they do not wish to so conform.

[Valmy]

I don't know, I mean Spanish is pretty strong in my neighborhood. Why we have stores and billboards that only have things posted up in Spanish. 

The German immigrants had entire towns and regions where not a single word of English was seen or heard.  They came around eventually.

[Valmy]

*Obviously, St. Patrick's Day, Columbus Day, and Cinco de Mayo celebrations will be retained, along with better food than the American baseline.

Why the hell do people celebrate Cinco de Mayo in this country?  People in Mexico do not even care about it.  The United States is the only place in the entire hemisphere that celebrates that thing and I don't get it.  Why don't we adopt an actual Latin American holiday to celebrate?

And naturally a fort of Mexicans being slaughtered by a bunch of Frenchmen seems like a silly reason to celebrate to me.

[Eddie Teach]

Why the hell do people celebrate Cinco de Mayo in this country?  People in Mexico do not even care about it.  The United States is the only place in the entire hemisphere that celebrates that thing and I don't get it.  Why don't we adopt an actual Latin American holiday to celebrate?

And naturally a fort of Mexicans being slaughtered by a bunch of Frenchmen seems like a silly reason to celebrate to me.

Do people actually *celebrate* it? I thought it was just an excuse to drink for some.

[Valmy]

Do people actually *celebrate* it? I thought it was just an excuse to drink for some.

Heck if I know.  Nobody I know celebrates it.

[Barrister]

*Obviously, St. Patrick's Day, Columbus Day, and Cinco de Mayo celebrations will be retained, along with better food than the American baseline.

Why the hell do people celebrate Cinco de Mayo in this country?

I thought it was because it was pushed by the beer companies.

[ulmont]

Why the hell do people celebrate Cinco de Mayo in this country?

Any excuse to get wasted on margaritas and tequila shots?

[Valmy]

I thought it was because it was pushed by the beer companies.

Why would they push that one in particular?  There are not any actual Mexican national holidays to get drunk on?

I mean what if they had convinced all Canadians Flag Day was the most important American Holiday and you all got drunk?  Why would they do it then instead of July 4th?