British citizen creates national uproar in Quebec

[Grallon]

It should also be pointed out that this explaination is largely incomprehensible to the majority of "anglo" Canadians, who are by no means the monolythic entity imagined by Quebec nationalists. A child of some Hong Kong immigrant isn't going to make heads or tails of the argument that they are an ethno-lingusitic oppressor in denial of some group hundreds of miles away whom they have never interacted with.

This is what I meant by using suprious justifications to dismiss the validity, in this case, of our language laws.  As if immigrants' appreciation of a long standing argument between the two main ethnic groups in this country was relevant.  They're only being used as props in the debate.  Tcha! 




G.

[viper37]

Yep, all pretty irrational responses to a completely normal process.

Yes, they were.

In a way, so are Quebec language laws.

The man who had them voted said it was a "necessary disgrace".  And I agree.  I don't like having such laws, but they are necessary, otherwise we simply cease to exist.

Had French in Canada, and in the US, always received equal status to english or simply having not been so heavily discriminated against in the past, the situation today might be pretty different.  But it is not.  The past is imperfect, and so is the future.

I guess. Not close enough though - I get a lot more exposure to the debate here than I do in RL - in fact, I get zero exposure to it in real life - I've heard no more about the onerous oppression of air traffic controllers in Quebec here in Rochester than I did in Tucson.

Hey, I suppose Quebec&Canadian politics don't get much coverage in your local news

Just the same here about New York politics.  We hear from time to time about New York city mayor, some special coverage on Plattsburgh airport, but aside that, not much we hear about our friendly neighbours, be it Vermont, Maine or New York State.  I've really no idea who is governor of those states, so I can't really blame Americans for not knowing what's going on in our backyard.

[Berkut]

The problem isn't you (Americans). It's the rest of Canada.

I realize that - but the "rest of Canada" is pretty much culturally identical to most of New England as well.

They don't have too but they were expressly forbidden from Speaking french.

Where? That would be a problem, and should be addressed - but I don't see the need for laws demanding that people ONLY speak French to do that, or silly things like demanding that French be "predominant" on signs and such.

[Grallon]

I wonder how much of my bemusement at the worry people show about protecting their "culture" is simply because I am part of the dominant global culture, and hence do not share their sense of threat.

I simply cannot imagine why anyone would care about such things. What difference does it make if your native language is dieing out? Globalization makes that inevitable anyway. The purpose of language is communication - and that is facilitated by a common language, not by a bunch of people clinging to some particular language. I am guessing that French they hold so dear is some combination of other languages anyway.

A bubble of French speaker in a sea of English? What *value* does it hold that you all speak French anyway - other than the emotional (and frankly immature) feeling of "specialness" it has to feel that you are somehow different?

I take exception to your suggestion we should simply just suicide now because our culture may or may not die out in some distant future.  How incredibly arrogant and condescending. 

On the other hand, it should be amusing to watch your reactions when mandarin's usage rises alongside China's importance. 

But as you said, you cannot grasp the situation since you belong to another culture.




G.

[Malthus]

As far as I know however, Israel has not adopted "language laws" preventing unilingual Arabic signs, and officially has two official languages - Hebrew and Arabic.

This, despite (or prehaps because of) the fact that Arabs and Jews are much more antagonistic than Francophones and Anglophones.

I knew you were gonna bring that up.

So, tell me.  Why are there refugee camps on the borders of Israel?  Why not let all these Arab citizens come back into Israel proper and grant them the exact same rights as current Israeli-Arab citizens?  Official bilinguism in a country composed 50-50 of Arabs & Jews might be something else entirely, especially if one group is expanding faster than the other.

Wouldn't there be some fear - as you once said yourself - of losing "Israel's Jewish identity" ?
What's in a cultural identity after all...

As I said, Israelis fear for their physical safety, not their culture. They don't let Palestinian refugees into the country because they fear being exterminated, not because they are afraid that they, the Israelis, will end up speaking Arabic. 

[Berkut]

Yep, all pretty irrational responses to a completely normal process.

Yes, they were.

In a way, so are Quebec language laws.

The man who had them voted said it was a "necessary disgrace".  And I agree.  I don't like having such laws, but they are necessary, otherwise we simply cease to exist.

No you don't. You will exist regardless of which language you speak.

I don't buy the idea at all that your "existence" is dependent on passing laws intending to make sure people speak some particular language.

[Slargos]

As far as I know however, Israel has not adopted "language laws" preventing unilingual Arabic signs, and officially has two official languages - Hebrew and Arabic.

This, despite (or prehaps because of) the fact that Arabs and Jews are much more antagonistic than Francophones and Anglophones.

I knew you were gonna bring that up.

So, tell me.  Why are there refugee camps on the borders of Israel?  Why not let all these Arab citizens come back into Israel proper and grant them the exact same rights as current Israeli-Arab citizens?  Official bilinguism in a country composed 50-50 of Arabs & Jews might be something else entirely, especially if one group is expanding faster than the other.

Wouldn't there be some fear - as you once said yourself - of losing "Israel's Jewish identity" ?
What's in a cultural identity after all...

As I said, Israelis fear for their physical safety, not their culture. They don't let Palestinian refugees into the country because they fear being exterminated, not because they are afraid that they, the Israelis, will end up speaking Arabic.

Six of one and a half dozen of the other.

Is there really a difference between physical and cultural extermination, other than the obvious petty murder of a generation or two? In a few hundred years, no one will be able to tell the difference between the two anyway.

[Valmy]

As I said, Israelis fear for their physical safety, not their culture. They don't let Palestinian refugees into the country because they fear being exterminated, not because they are afraid that they, the Israelis, will end up speaking Arabic. 

Oh no it is exactly the same thing.  I hear the Anglo-Canadians have brigades of militias who chant 'death to Quebec'.

[Malthus]

It should also be pointed out that this explaination is largely incomprehensible to the majority of "anglo" Canadians, who are by no means the monolythic entity imagined by Quebec nationalists. A child of some Hong Kong immigrant isn't going to make heads or tails of the argument that they are an ethno-lingusitic oppressor in denial of some group hundreds of miles away whom they have never interacted with.

This is what I meant by using suprious justifications to dismiss the validity, in this case, of our language laws.  As if immigrants' appreciation of a long standing argument between the two main ethnic groups in this country was relevant.  They're only being used as props in the debate.  Tcha! 




G.

Of course the views of the descendents of immigrants are relevant, they are on their way to being a majority of our citizens. How are their views not relevant?

Now I have a mental image of you hunting down the last surviving member of the Orange Order in his nursing home - and joining him. 

[Grey Fox]

The problem isn't you (Americans). It's the rest of Canada.

I realize that - but the "rest of Canada" is pretty much culturally identical to most of New England as well.

They don't have too but they were expressly forbidden from Speaking french.

Where? That would be a problem, and should be addressed - but I don't see the need for laws demanding that people ONLY speak French to do that, or silly things like demanding that French be "predominant" on signs and such.

The ATCs & Pilots, in Quebec until 1975. The law changed to allow speaking French. The Anglos still speak english. Anglophone pilots still communicate in English. But in the even that there's a french one.

Yes the sign laws are stupid but they were necassary.

[Berkut]

I wonder how much of my bemusement at the worry people show about protecting their "culture" is simply because I am part of the dominant global culture, and hence do not share their sense of threat.

I simply cannot imagine why anyone would care about such things. What difference does it make if your native language is dieing out? Globalization makes that inevitable anyway. The purpose of language is communication - and that is facilitated by a common language, not by a bunch of people clinging to some particular language. I am guessing that French they hold so dear is some combination of other languages anyway.

A bubble of French speaker in a sea of English? What *value* does it hold that you all speak French anyway - other than the emotional (and frankly immature) feeling of "specialness" it has to feel that you are somehow different?

I take exception to your suggestion we should simply just suicide now because our culture may or may not die out in some distant future.  How incredibly arrogant and condescending. 

On the other hand, it should be amusing to watch your reactions when mandarin's usage rises alongside China's importance. 

But as you said, you cannot grasp the situation since you belong to another culture.




G.

Suicide?

Are you suggesting that you will die if you don't speak French and read signs where the French is larger than the English?

And if Mandarin becomes the dominant language in the US, why in the world would I care? Why would anyone care?

[Berkut]

Lots of "stupid but necessary" going on I guess. Well, we agree on 50% of it anyway.

[Grey Fox]

I wonder how much of my bemusement at the worry people show about protecting their "culture" is simply because I am part of the dominant global culture, and hence do not share their sense of threat.

I simply cannot imagine why anyone would care about such things. What difference does it make if your native language is dieing out? Globalization makes that inevitable anyway. The purpose of language is communication - and that is facilitated by a common language, not by a bunch of people clinging to some particular language. I am guessing that French they hold so dear is some combination of other languages anyway.

A bubble of French speaker in a sea of English? What *value* does it hold that you all speak French anyway - other than the emotional (and frankly immature) feeling of "specialness" it has to feel that you are somehow different?

I take exception to your suggestion we should simply just suicide now because our culture may or may not die out in some distant future.  How incredibly arrogant and condescending. 

On the other hand, it should be amusing to watch your reactions when mandarin's usage rises alongside China's importance. 

But as you said, you cannot grasp the situation since you belong to another culture.




G.

Suicide?

Are you suggesting that you will die if you don't speak French and read signs where the French is larger than the English?

And if Mandarin becomes the dominant language in the US, why in the world would I care? Why would anyone care?

Quote isn't trimmed because the quote system of this board is retarded.

Don't you fear that if you start speaking Mandarin, you'll lose your identity has an American and as a New Yorker? You'll just be one more drone in the Communist Chinese Machine.

Someone will care, Seedy will care. Americans would take up arms.

[Valmy]

Quote isn't trimmed because the quote system of this board is retarded.

Don't you fear that if you start speaking Mandarin, you'll lose your identity has an American and as a New Yorker? You'll just be one more drone in the Communist Chinese Machine.

Someone will care, Seedy will care. Americans would take up arms.

Our identity as Americans is ideological not cultural so I do not think I would be worried.

But then I am surrounded by Spanish and Spanish is entirely consistent with a Texas identity.

[Eddie Teach]

I don't see Mandarin becoming the lingua franca without a major shift in Chinese culture. Even if they had a per capita gdp like those of the West, they'd still conduct business with barbarians in the barbarian tongue.