British citizen creates national uproar in Quebec

[viper37]

Not to my knowledge, no. Most Israelis know at least some English, and Russian is widely spoken; not sure about French.

Knew about english and russian is some places, but I heard it about French and was always skeptical.
Maybe it was so once upon a time and it disapeared with the new generation, just like it happens in many other country.

The history of Hebrew is indeed an interesting one, as it was a dead "liturgical language" much like Latin today (that is, studied for holy writ but not actually spoken) which was deliberately revived for the nationalist project - and out of an abiding dislike for all things European (associated with centuries of oppression and, eventually, genocide).  Yiddish was considered if you like a "ghetto language" unsuitable for the modern world.

interesting   Thanks.

I have no idea whether there exists any sort of laws mandating Hebrew on signs or the like. I suspect not, though.

Where Siege when we need him?

[Berkut]

Perhaps it would not if I were closer to it.

Um....don't you live pretty close to Quebec?

Not culturally!

Not all that close - I don't have any kind of real contact with anyone from Quebec outside of Languish. The entire thing is rather amusing, really. Rebel without a cause kind of thing.

I think I will go play a game of Wilderness War.

[Malthus]

Yes in fact - many parts of Israel are ethnically divided, because their problems with ethnicity are an order of magnitude or two worse than those of Canada.

oh, you don't say?  People are blowing themselves up in the street and that's because the problems are an order of magnitude or two worse than those of Canada?  I would never have guessed that!


My example of Israel is because it's kinda surrounded by an alien culture, like Quebec, and they too have ways to protect their cultural identity.  So I guess if Quebec is a xenophobic or racist state for protecting it's language and culture, so is Israel in its own way.

Their reactions have I think been quite different in the realm of language.

Both Jews and Quebequois are if you like majorities in their own lands with a substantial minority; surrounded by a "majority" lingusitically and ethnically similar to that minority.

As far as I know however, Israel has not adopted "language laws" preventing unilingual Arabic signs, and officially has two official languages - Hebrew and Arabic.

This, despite (or prehaps because of) the fact that Arabs and Jews are much more antagonistic than Francophones and Anglophones.

Part of that is I suppose that Israelis do not share the Francophone fear of assimilation. More like assassination.     Israelis have no need of laws to protect their distinct identity, because that isn't under threat: no (or very few) Israelis are attracted to Arabic culture, or fear they are being left out of important cultural or scientific stuff if they don't speak Arabic. For that, they learn English or other European languages. 

[Berkut]

I wonder how much of my bemusement at the worry people show about protecting their "culture" is simply because I am part of the dominant global culture, and hence do not share their sense of threat.

I simply cannot imagine why anyone would care about such things. What difference does it make if your native language is dieing out? Globalization makes that inevitable anyway. The purpose of language is communication - and that is facilitated by a common language, not by a bunch of people clinging to some particular language. I am guessing that French they hold so dear is some combination of other languages anyway.

A bubble of French speaker in a sea of English? What *value* does it hold that you all speak French anyway - other than the emotional (and frankly immature) feeling of "specialness" it has to feel that you are somehow different?

[viper37]

How can any Europeans in America cling to the idea that their "culture" has some kind of historical legitmacy over some other culture based on the idea that they were there first? Doesn't that raise some rather pointed responses from the people who really WERE there first? I thought the comment about them being insulted by being treated the same as "first nations" rather interesting, since it betrays their own prejudice towards them - after all, you can only be insulted by being compared to them if in fact they are somehow less valuable.

Oh, really?
Then why all the fuss over Obama's religion during the campaign, that fear that he may be a Muslim and not a Christian?
Why all the fuss over religion, mainly Christianity, in your country?

The reason is mainly a fear of some people of losing their identity as what they perceive to be Americans.

In other places, where Spanish is really invasive, you got this kind of measures:
In 1986, California voters added a new constitutional clause, by referendum, stating that English is the official language of the State of California,

And searching through the net, I found various studies saying&repeating that "spanish is not a threat to the english language", and various stats about the degree of assimilation of the american spanish speaking community.  That sounds to me like some people are concerned about losing their identity.  As long as another language/culture is not seen as a threat, there's no problem.  In the past, French was seen as a threat in Lousiana and other states in the norht due to massive immigration, so it was forbidden as a language.  Indian languages where seen as a cultural threat, so they were forbidden in schools in the hope of definately assimilating the kids.

Anyway, the entire thing just looks ludicrous from here. Perhaps it would not if I were closer to it.

You're in upper New York State, aren't you?  That's pretty close to Quebec

[viper37]

As far as I know however, Israel has not adopted "language laws" preventing unilingual Arabic signs, and officially has two official languages - Hebrew and Arabic.

This, despite (or prehaps because of) the fact that Arabs and Jews are much more antagonistic than Francophones and Anglophones.

I knew you were gonna bring that up.

So, tell me.  Why are there refugee camps on the borders of Israel?  Why not let all these Arab citizens come back into Israel proper and grant them the exact same rights as current Israeli-Arab citizens?  Official bilinguism in a country composed 50-50 of Arabs & Jews might be something else entirely, especially if one group is expanding faster than the other.

Wouldn't there be some fear - as you once said yourself - of losing "Israel's Jewish identity" ?
What's in a cultural identity after all...

[Valmy]

Why not let all these Arab citizens come back into Israel proper and grant them the exact same rights as current Israeli-Arab citizens?

Because they are not and have never been Israeli citizens?

[Berkut]

How can any Europeans in America cling to the idea that their "culture" has some kind of historical legitmacy over some other culture based on the idea that they were there first? Doesn't that raise some rather pointed responses from the people who really WERE there first? I thought the comment about them being insulted by being treated the same as "first nations" rather interesting, since it betrays their own prejudice towards them - after all, you can only be insulted by being compared to them if in fact they are somehow less valuable.

Oh, really?
Then why all the fuss over Obama's religion during the campaign, that fear that he may be a Muslim and not a Christian?

Because Americans are not immune to this same silliness, of course.

Why all the fuss over religion, mainly Christianity, in your country?

Because Christianity is a higly evangelical religion focused on a "us vs them" dynamic that demands that they convert the non-believers into believers. I am not sure it has much to do with cultural identity, although to be fair, it isn't an apt comparison since Christianity is so dominant that there isn't any real threat.

The reason is mainly a fear of some people of losing their identity as what they perceive to be Americans.

No, not really - and to the extent that it is accurate, I think it is silly here as well.

In other places, where Spanish is really invasive, you got this kind of measures:
In 1986, California voters added a new constitutional clause, by referendum, stating that English is the official language of the State of California,

Yeah, pretty stupid.

And searching through the net, I found various studies saying&repeating that "spanish is not a threat to the english language", and various stats about the degree of assimilation of the american spanish speaking community.  That sounds to me like some people are concerned about losing their identity.  As long as another language/culture is not seen as a threat, there's no problem.  In the past, French was seen as a threat in Lousiana and other states in the norht due to massive immigration, so it was forbidden as a language.  Indian languages where seen as a cultural threat, so they were forbidden in schools in the hope of definately assimilating the kids.

Yep, all pretty irrational responses to a completely normal process.

Anyway, the entire thing just looks ludicrous from here. Perhaps it would not if I were closer to it.

You're in upper New York State, aren't you?  That's pretty close to Quebec

I guess. Not close enough though - I get a lot more exposure to the debate here than I do in RL - in fact, I get zero exposure to it in real life - I've heard no more about the onerous oppression of air traffic controllers in Quebec here in Rochester than I did in Tucson.

[viper37]

Because they are not and have never been Israeli citizens?

They were there before being expelled, forced to leave or simply decided to flee the war themselves.
Of course they were not citizen of Israels before, there was no Israel prior to them vacating the area willingly or not.  Only once they were gone did the territory became Israel.

If we were to adopt the same reasoning, the language laws aimed at preventing assimilation from new immigrants are of no consequences since they don't target Canadian (Quebecois) citizens, only foreigners.

[Grey Fox]

Perhaps it would not if I were closer to it.

Um....don't you live pretty close to Quebec?

Not culturally!

Not all that close - I don't have any kind of real contact with anyone from Quebec outside of Languish. The entire thing is rather amusing, really. Rebel without a cause kind of thing.

I think I will go play a game of Wilderness War.

Closer then you think. Quebec isn't much different from New England.

[Valmy]

They were there before being expelled, forced to leave or simply decided to flee the war themselves.

Um...no they weren't.

Yeah pity about that war.  Maybe every bordering Arab state shouldn't have attacked and then left the Palestinians out to dry for decades?

I love how it is always the fucking Israelis fault for defending themselves and not being all lovey lovey with everybody sworn to destroy them.  The Palestinians are a hostile force why should they embrace their enemies, should that be the job of the Palestinians friends?  Oh wait there is not such a thing.

If we were to adopt the same reasoning, the language laws aimed at preventing assimilation from new immigrants are of no consequences since they don't target Canadian (Quebecois) citizens, only foreigners

Yes because 50+ years of constant war is exactly the fucking same thing as Quebec you  asshole.

[Berkut]

Perhaps it would not if I were closer to it.

Um....don't you live pretty close to Quebec?

Not culturally!

Not all that close - I don't have any kind of real contact with anyone from Quebec outside of Languish. The entire thing is rather amusing, really. Rebel without a cause kind of thing.

I think I will go play a game of Wilderness War.

Closer then you think. Quebec isn't much different from New England.

Which is why I don't understand this terror of being assimilated by a culture that is pretty much identical to their own, since apparently the net effect will be that your pilots will have to speak French when landing their planes.

[Grey Fox]

A bubble of French speaker in a sea of English? What *value* does it hold that you all speak French anyway - other than the emotional (and frankly immature) feeling of "specialness" it has to feel that you are somehow different?

I don't see simply speaking french being all that valuable. It's really more about how speaking french has become the #1 beacon of our culture. 40 years of political will did that. Altho one could quite argue that it's the major pylon that unites us all (Oex & Viper agree!).

I argue quite often then being Québécois is much more then just speaking French.

[Berkut]

A bubble of French speaker in a sea of English? What *value* does it hold that you all speak French anyway - other than the emotional (and frankly immature) feeling of "specialness" it has to feel that you are somehow different?

I don't see simply speaking french being all that valuable. It's really more about how speaking french has become the #1 beacon of our culture. 40 years of political will did that. Altho one could quite argue that it's the major pylon that unites us all (Oex & Viper agree!).

I argue quite often then being Québécois is much more then just speaking French.

Closer then you think. Quebec isn't much different from New England.

Unity for its own sake is rather silly, since it implies some external contest. Why create a conflict where one does not exist, just for the sake of being able to say you are different, when in fact you really aren't?

How does this effect anyone's life? It seems like the effects are almost completely negative - at least in any objective sense.

[Grey Fox]

Perhaps it would not if I were closer to it.

Um....don't you live pretty close to Quebec?

Not culturally!

Not all that close - I don't have any kind of real contact with anyone from Quebec outside of Languish. The entire thing is rather amusing, really. Rebel without a cause kind of thing.

I think I will go play a game of Wilderness War.

Closer then you think. Quebec isn't much different from New England.

Which is why I don't understand this terror of being assimilated by a culture that is pretty much identical to their own, since apparently the net effect will be that your pilots will have to speak French when landing their planes.

The problem isn't you (Americans). It's the rest of Canada.

They don't have too but they were expressly forbidden from Speaking french.

Someone needs to watch the doc I linked & explain it better then I can.