British citizen creates national uproar in Quebec

[Razgovory]

Well, I could also settle for white Quebecois dying. Can it be arranged?

$50

Btw, are you coming to America for the gay march on Washington?

Loose lips sink slips.  We are on to your military operations.

[garbon]

Loose lips sink slips.  We are on to your military operations.

Well they are advertising.

[grumbler]

I think that Sheilbh is quite right to push for bilingual education, even in the absence of a strict "utility" to the language.  Learning a second language tells a student a lot about their own language, and being able to see oideas presented in different languages can allow students to see things in completely different ways.  I think that there is no question in the educational field that second (and even third) languages are a great benefit even to students that won't speak them outside school.

That is a reason why Latin is still taught even though native Latin-speakers are thin on the ground.

[Martinus]

Well, I could also settle for white Quebecois dying. Can it be arranged?

$50

Btw, are you coming to America for the gay march on Washington?

I will not go to America until you guys drop the humiliating visa process for Poles.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I think that Sheilbh is quite right to push for bilingual education, even in the absence of a strict "utility" to the language.  Learning a second language tells a student a lot about their own language, and being able to see oideas presented in different languages can allow students to see things in completely different ways.  I think that there is no question in the educational field that second (and even third) languages are a great benefit even to students that won't speak them outside school.

That is a reason why Latin is still taught even though native Latin-speakers are thin on the ground.

not only that buty it's also good for the brain as it makes it more flexible. And better brains are always handy.

[Neil]

Canada is a federation, where provinces decide a lot of things.

What a lot of you guys don't seem to get is that Quebec is unilingual francophone. That's a fact. There's really no point in complaining when you don't get served in english. 90% of the population is francophone and a big chunk of that doesn't speak english, especially out in the countryside.

There's no real incentive for them to learn english. There's even less incentive for them to serve you in english.

Just like you shouldn't expect to be served in english in a small town in turkey, china, italy or wherever.

On parle francais icitte. Calisse.

So the real question is, why would anyone visit Quebec?

At least France actually has cool stuff, like Paris and the Arc d'Triumphe and the Louvre and Verdun and unexploded ordnance and all sorts of shit.  Hell, you're even probably closer to an Anglophone safe harbor in Paris than you are in Montreal.  And if you really do think you'd miss a bunch of quaint nationalist assholes being unnecessarily difficult, you can just go to Belgium and talk with some Flems...

Quebec has some rather nice lakes and forests, better and less crowded than Ontario's, far closer to civilization than Manitoba and far more affordable than the Alberta national parks of Jasper and Banff.  BC's southern interior might be comparable, but it's thousands of kilometres away.  If you like that sort of thing, you could do a lot worse than Quebec.

Montreal is something of a safe Anglophone harbour, although they try and make it less so.  They've tried to chase away the prosperity that only English can provide, but it still hangs on.

[Neil]

I think that Sheilbh is quite right to push for bilingual education, even in the absence of a strict "utility" to the language.  Learning a second language tells a student a lot about their own language, and being able to see oideas presented in different languages can allow students to see things in completely different ways.  I think that there is no question in the educational field that second (and even third) languages are a great benefit even to students that won't speak them outside school.

Education is a racket anyways.  They would say or do anything in order to improve their lot.

That is a reason why Latin is still taught even though native Latin-speakers are thin on the ground.

Because that's what our ancestors learnt, back when Latin was the One Language that all civilized people could speak, and the early educational types saw Greek and Latin as civilized languages, rather than the backwards languages of barbarian peoples we know they are today.

[Ed Anger]

Well, I could also settle for white Quebecois dying. Can it be arranged?

$50

Btw, are you coming to America for the gay march on Washington?

I will not go to America until you guys drop the humiliating visa process for Poles.

They are thinking about adding a 10 dollar entry fee for Euros in congress.

[Admiral Yi]

So the real question is, why would anyone visit Quebec?

At least France actually has cool stuff, like Paris and the Arc d'Triumphe and the Louvre and Verdun and unexploded ordnance and all sorts of shit.  Hell, you're even probably closer to an Anglophone safe harbor in Paris than you are in Montreal.  And if you really do think you'd miss a bunch of quaint nationalist assholes being unnecessarily difficult, you can just go to Belgium and talk with some Flems...

Amazing babes as far as the eye can see.  Acres and acres of them.  Many of them willing to take off their clothes and buff your zipper for a few pennies.

And for the record during my trips to Quebec I caught no whiff of crap attitude (apart from the customs & immigration chicks), language related or not.  And like Neil mentioned Montreal is very English friendly.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah but weren't you advocating that the entire country should be bilingual? If people in Catalonia are bilingual it's one thing, but if we applied your previous proposition to Spain, every Spaniard should be bilingual.

The difference is that Catalan is a local tongue, like Welsh.  So there's no real benefit in everyone in Spain learning it while it's good for Catalans (or Welsh) and learning one language at a young age makes learning another easier, for example I imagine most Spanish high schools teach English or French.  I think all Canada should learn French and English because neither language is just a Canadian regional language, they're both global.  So it's like kids in Scotland learning French.

[Oexmelin]

The difference is that Catalan is a local tongue, like Welsh.  So there's no real benefit in everyone in Spain learning it while it's good for Catalans (or Welsh) and learning one language at a young age makes learning another easier, for example I imagine most Spanish high schools teach English or French.  I think all Canada should learn French and English because neither language is just a Canadian regional language, they're both global.  So it's like kids in Scotland learning French.

Despite Neil's usual background noise, it does hint at one of the problems, IMO, in Canada. Neither language is seen as opportunities to broaden one's world. In Québec, the only selling point of English has always been utility - but it is a powerful selling point in today's world. Outside of Québec, French is always seen as political, unuseful, a symbol of the Federal's will upon the provinces, a waste of time, a waste of money, capriciousness, a relic, a hurdle to one's career, etc. Bilingualism has very rarely been seen as a great utopia, but as an irritating political measure.

[Malthus]

Yeah but weren't you advocating that the entire country should be bilingual? If people in Catalonia are bilingual it's one thing, but if we applied your previous proposition to Spain, every Spaniard should be bilingual.

The difference is that Catalan is a local tongue, like Welsh.  So there's no real benefit in everyone in Spain learning it while it's good for Catalans (or Welsh) and learning one language at a young age makes learning another easier, for example I imagine most Spanish high schools teach English or French.  I think all Canada should learn French and English because neither language is just a Canadian regional language, they're both global.  So it's like kids in Scotland learning French.

French is more of a regional language in Canada - a very large country indeed. While there are large French-speaking minorities outside of Quebec (particularly in some parts of Northern Ontario, the Metis in Manitoba, and New Brunswick), in vast parts of Canada hardly anyone speaks it. In Southern Ontario and in British Columbia, Chinese would be considerably more useful than French; in Saskatchewan, Ukranian. Why not have kids speaking these languages (often their own ancestral languages) instead, if there are only resources to teach one additional language?

Not that learning French isn't rewarding for its own sake, mind you. But the notion it is more than a regional language in Canada isn't really correct. You are no more likely to hear French spoken in Toronto than in London, and politics aside there is no more reason (and of course no less) to learn it here than there.

And that's really the rub: the only reason to learn the language in most of English Canada (as opposed to any other) is, basically, political: to make Quebequois comfortable with confederation. Like anything done essentially to appease someone elses' anxieties, it appears pointless and onerous to its victims - schoolkids - even though of course learning a language is always "a good thing".

What rankles in Quebec is of course the fact that the reverse is not true. Learning English is essential to avoid being trapped in provincialism, since much of the world communicates in it as the "lingua francia" (ironically enough).

[Oexmelin]

And that's really the rub: the only reason to learn the language in most of English Canada (as opposed to any other) is, basically, political: to make Quebequois comfortable with confederation. Like anything done essentially to appease someone elses' anxieties, it appears pointless and onerous to its victims - schoolkids - even though of course learning a language is always "a good thing".

Here is usually where we disagree: on whether Canadian history means something or nothing (I suspect you take a much more «presentist» notion of the country than I do) and then, if it means something, what type of society is ought to produce.

[Malthus]

And that's really the rub: the only reason to learn the language in most of English Canada (as opposed to any other) is, basically, political: to make Quebequois comfortable with confederation. Like anything done essentially to appease someone elses' anxieties, it appears pointless and onerous to its victims - schoolkids - even though of course learning a language is always "a good thing".

Here is usually where we disagree: on whether Canadian history means something or nothing (I suspect you take a much more «presentist» notion of the country than I do) and then, if it means something, what type of society is ought to produce.

The issue is whether certain citizen's ancestors are to be honoured into perpetuity over other citizens' ancestors.

Are the Francophone developers of farming along the St. Lawrence more historically significant than the Ukranians who deleloped farming on the great plains of the West - because they arrived first? So much so, that the decendants of the latter should learn the formers' language as a matter of policy, even it if it is of little practical use to them?

[Sheilbh]

French is more of a regional language in Canada - a very large country indeed. While there are large French-speaking minorities outside of Quebec (particularly in some parts of Northern Ontario, the Metis in Manitoba, and New Brunswick), in vast parts of Canada hardly anyone speaks it. In Southern Ontario and in British Columbia, Chinese would be considerably more useful than French; in Saskatchewan, Ukranian. Why not have kids speaking these languages (often their own ancestral languages) instead, if there are only resources to teach one additional language?

I'd have no problem with Chinese education, in fact I think it should be encouraged in those regions, though French should still be taught because it's an official language of Canada and is spoken by a significant minority of Canadians.  I'd support Ukrainian education too.

Not that learning French isn't rewarding for its own sake, mind you. But the notion it is more than a regional language in Canada isn't really correct. You are no more likely to hear French spoken in Toronto than in London, and politics aside there is no more reason (and of course no less) to learn it here than there.

It is more than a Canadian regional language.  It is a global language, it's probably top ten in the world.  Now that may mean that you won't necessarily use it on a day-to-day basis in Toronto (in London I think you probably could if you wanted to, in terms of French citizens I think London's the 4-5th biggest city in the world) but it means that there's a lot more potential for teaching.

When I was 17 I stopped studying French because I wanted to focus my A-levels on other stuff, though my French teacher asked me to carry on.  When I was 18 doing my A-levels I was lent a copy of 'La Haine' by one of the French teachers because I'd mentioned to her that I don't think I'd ever seen a French film.  That for me was a moment when I really regretted not carrying on my French and it was the first time I realised what film could do as an art-form as opposed to just entertainment.  It was a real epiphany moment.

I think that in the same way as we encourage children at schools to learn about history, to read sonnets and to understand art and music, we should encourage them to learn another language to the best of their ability.  I think these are things that have no utility for most people most of the time but they can offer opportunities for work, but more importantly for pleasure for all students.  I think we all agree that learning a language is a good thing but I think schools actually focus too much on the utility and not enough on the joy it will allow you to have.  I think they should show Amelie to kids, when they're all 14 try and read through some Camus as a class.  I think that's easier with French, because it's a global language with a culture to match.  While I support learning Welsh, or Catalan, or Gaelic I think that aspect's more difficult.

My basic view is that the Canadian government should always be able to offer some degree of bilingual service because Canada's an officially bilingual status - in a similar way I think the Flems occasionally have a point.  I also think that bilingualism should be encouraged in schools, from a very early age because kids pick up languages without even knowing it when they're young enough, and that French would make a very sensible default in Canada, given the official status of French.  Though I've no doubt that in some areas Mandarin or Ukrainian could be as applicable.