EVE Online

[Berkut]

I don't know, nobody asked me. But we didn't start that war, RA did - what did they think would happen?

I guess they didn't think we would actually ATTACK them in response, and apparently that kind of pissed GS off.

RA started the war, IRC invaded, RA realized they had bitten off more than they really wanted to chew, and GS bailed them out.

I still wonder if the entire thing was not orchestrated by GS so they would have a reason to grief IRC who was supposedly an ally at the time. Was the chance at stealing a bunch of shit from IRC and getting to crow about on CAOD just too good to pass up?

Yeah, you still haven't told me why this would benefit GoonSwarm or RA in any way at all at a time when they and we are actively fighting an enemy much much more powerful than IRC/ED.  This really didn't help UNL any.  I would also like to know why IRC was one of the alliances that GS offered Querious to if GS was just planning on having our pets destroy you?

Because they thought IRC would fold, of course. In fact, that is exactly what they said, that IRC would not last 2 weeks, and then they could grab all that space.

Plus they get to pull off another meta game theft coup, and dance around CAOD crowing about it and being worshiped by people who find that so very cool.

Not at all. I know what the relationship used to be between GS and RA, and I know what it is now.

how can you say anything other than that they are a pet? RA got in trouble, GS shook out all the other pets to bail them out.

Shouldn't they be fighting in Querious or something then, instead of the drone regions against you people?  The Red Alliance capital fleet would really be a big help in their time zone.

Indeed, I am not saying this worked out as GS planned, obviously. They planned to have IRC/ED gone in a matter of weeks, as they stated would certainly happen after the theft and they sent all their pets after them, and forced their NAPfest to go to war.

It would have been a great idea, if it worked. Take a little time to crush IRC/ED, and you can keep your pets happy with the pickings.

Huh? What are you babbling about? Of course it was Saba from TITTS, that isn't the point. He was a GS spy, and he did the normal GS spy thing. AWE fucked up by letting him do it - but such is the nature of EVE. The game is poorly designed in that respect, since they allow the meta gaming, but do not make any attempt to keep it in any kind of balance.

The...er....normal spy thing...doesn't generally seem to involve the entire corporation taking everything and joining a different alliance.

Shrug. It was certainly a coup for GS, no doubt. But they love this stuff, brag about it in fact.

If in fact it was NOT GS, then why was Mittani negotiating (obviously in bad faith) to return it?

The real surprise though is that after losing 20 caps and half a titan, the predictions of immediate folding did not happen, even after GS (not surprisingly) lied about resolving the issue. Why IRC high command even agreed to discuss it is beyond me though - they ahd to know that the only reason it was even being offered was to get some more LOLZ for the Goonies.

Probably for the same reason they attacked RA.  They don't seem to be the brightest.

Of course - that must be it. That must be why they folded in two weeks, as your fearless leaders predicted. Because they are so stupid.

Seems like a pretty simple question - why are you repeating things you know are not true, and you know I know are not true? I know why GS does it in general, I don't know why you are bothering here though.

I really don't think you know why GS does anything.

I think we both do, the only difference I have nothing to gain by pretending otherwise. I know what I am, and what IRC is - nothing particularly special in the Eve world, just one of many alliances.

You are the one trying hard to justify fighting for a bunch of griefers, and the funny thing is that you are doing it by trying to pretend they are something different from what they themselves *insist* they are.

[Berkut]

Really though...I can see where they were coming from about the collapse after reading various logs from IRC, etc.  Congrats on not failure cascading.

LOL, I see you are even spewing back the same Goonspeak right back. You are the GS version of Hansmeister.

[Berkut]

It doesn't make sense at all.  What does is IRC/ED seeing GS leave very abruptly, RA involved with AAA/Etc, and thinking they could make a territory grab.  That actually makes a whole helluva lot more sense than RA attacking both AAA/etc and IRC/ED at the same time.  Red Alliance leadership has never really come across as monumentally stupid to me...

You know, you could just make a new post, rather than massively editing the old one.

IN any case, what is stupid about GS/RA taking IRC/ED out in a quick campaign and divvying up the spoils amongst the pets?

After all, that is what your Fuhrer guaranteed, right? That IRC would be gone in just a quick campaign, because they could get a a ton of alliances to attack? Gee, that sounds familiar....IRC is stupid, one swift kick and they will collapse, surely!

None of this matters though - we both know that we are pissing in the wind, and that RA attacked IRC  It was so clumsily contrived it isn't funny. But then, I guess all you are going for is the fig leaf of cover.

[MadBurgerMaker]

Because they thought IRC would fold, of course. In fact, that is exactly what they said, that IRC would not last 2 weeks, and then they could grab all that space.

And we wouldn't wait and just totally steamroll you a little later, after Delve and Querious were secured...............why again?

Again:  Does not make sense.

Plus they get to pull off another meta game theft coup, and dance around CAOD crowing about it and being worshiped by people who find that so very cool.

I'm not understanding why we would need RA to invade so TITTS could take a bunch of stuff and join Zenith Affinity?

Shrug. It was certainly a coup for GS, no doubt. But they love this stuff, brag about it in fact.

If in fact it was NOT GS, then why was Mittani negotiating (obviously in bad faith) to return it?

TITTS is in Zenith Affinity now, a relatively new ally to GS, not GoonSwarm itself. 

Re: Mittani:  Because he didn't actually have anything to negotiate with.  TITTS had/has everything, Berk.

Of course - that must be it. That must be why they folded in two weeks, as your fearless leaders predicted. Because they are so stupid.

Well.  Yeah. Why else would they make such a stupid "land" grab, then fall for Mittani's bluff?

I think we both do, the only difference I have nothing to gain by pretending otherwise. I know what I am, and what IRC is - nothing particularly special in the Eve world, just one of many alliances.

You are the one trying hard to justify fighting for a bunch of griefers, and the funny thing is that you are doing it by trying to pretend they are something different from what they themselves *insist* they are.

I have no idea what you're talking about now.  Who's justifying what now?

LOL, I see you are even spewing back the same Goonspeak right back. You are the GS version of Hansmeister.

What now?  All I said was I read various IRC/ED chatlogs and could see why they would think you people were in imminent danger of collapsing.  I suppose if you're not a director, you might not have actually seen those though.    But yeah, congratulations on still being in existence. 

Edit:

You know, you could just make a new post, rather than massively editing the old one.

IN any case, what is stupid about GS/RA taking IRC/ED out in a quick campaign and divvying up the spoils amongst the pets?

After all, that is what your Fuhrer guaranteed, right? That IRC would be gone in just a quick campaign, because they could get a a ton of alliances to attack? Gee, that sounds familiar....IRC is stupid, one swift kick and they will collapse, surely!

None of this matters though - we both know that we are pissing in the wind, and that RA attacked IRC  It was so clumsily contrived it isn't funny. But then, I guess all you are going for is the fig leaf of cover.

Der Fuhrer Darius JOHNSON:  "Okay guys! You will attack KenZoku/AAA/SE/C0VEN/Atlas/EXE/Skunk Works/god knows who else and IRC/ED at the same time and engage in POS warfare with both!  What could possibly go wrong?!  After you crush IRC, who will surely collapse as soon as their POS timers allow them (weeks), while the other group is directly invading you from next door, you can then turn around and...well you won't be able to do much of anything, but that's alright because you'll have Etherium Reach!!"

Suddenly retarded RA directors:  "Okay boss!"

Even more suddenly retarded UNL directors: "Yeah sure no problem!  We aren't fighting for our lives in our home regions or anything!"

The master plan is exposed.    It all makes sense now! 

(neither RA nor UNL directors are stupid, btw)

Gotta run now.  Talk to you later Berk. 

[Grey Fox]

I am inclined to believe Mittani & state that the Goons got involved because IRC try to territory taken in the 1st War.

Goons, people of SA, do anything & everything for sheer laugh & humilation factor. Eve is no different.

[Berkut]

Because they thought IRC would fold, of course. In fact, that is exactly what they said, that IRC would not last 2 weeks, and then they could grab all that space.

And we wouldn't wait and just totally steamroll you a little later, after Delve and Querious were secured...............why again?

Again:  Does not make sense.

Why wait? It will only take a matter of weeks, and it won't even be Goonies doing the work.

Nothing to lose, plenty to gain, makes perfect sense...if in fact IRC is just going to fold, which I am sure is what Saba was telling them.

Plus they get to pull off another meta game theft coup, and dance around CAOD crowing about it and being worshiped by people who find that so very cool.

I'm not understanding why we would need RA to invade so TITTS could take a bunch of stuff and join Zenith Affinity?

To justify it, of course. Screwing over an actual ally would just make all the current pets nervous. Gotta have that fig leaf!

Shrug. It was certainly a coup for GS, no doubt. But they love this stuff, brag about it in fact.

If in fact it was NOT GS, then why was Mittani negotiating (obviously in bad faith) to return it?

TITTS is in Zenith Affinity now, a relatively new ally to GS, not GoonSwarm itself. 

Like that makes any difference at all? They joined yet another of the GS pets, so what?

They all do as they are told, like good little pets do. The argument that they ahd nothing to do with GS, when they promptly join a GS pet right afterwards is rather rich.

Re: Mittani:  Because he didn't actually have anything to negotiate with.  TITTS had/has everything, Berk.

So? They would have handed it over if they were ordered to do so, just like they all do as they are told. Such is the nature of pets. Who has actual physical possession is pretty meaningless, especially when the items in question are stuck in station anyway, and in fact the spy in question is a GS spy to begin with.

Of course - that must be it. That must be why they folded in two weeks, as your fearless leaders predicted. Because they are so stupid.

Well.  Yeah. Why else would they make such a stupid "land" grab, then fall for Mittani's bluff?

So it was a bluff? To what ends? What was Mittani trying to accomplish with this bluff - that apparently worked, since in fact IRC agreed to the terms?

If this was NOT what GS and RA wanted, why did RA and GS attack IRC after IRC agreed to their terms? Why were the terms even offered, except to get some more LOLZ?

GS offereed a deal to IRC - end the war against RA, and the theft would be returned. You are claiming that they could not have concluded that bargain if they wanted to - so why make it, if in fact you don't want to be fighting?

Your sequence of events makes no sense at all - if GS and RA really did not want to fight IRC, then why would they attack IRC after IRC agrees to go hat in hand and beg for their stuff back?

I think we both do, the only difference I have nothing to gain by pretending otherwise. I know what I am, and what IRC is - nothing particularly special in the Eve world, just one of many alliances.

You are the one trying hard to justify fighting for a bunch of griefers, and the funny thing is that you are doing it by trying to pretend they are something different from what they themselves *insist* they are.

I have no idea what you're talking about now.

That seems clear.

What now?  All I said was I read various IRC/ED chatlogs and could see why they would think you people were in imminent danger of collapsing.  I suppose if you're not a director, you might not have actually seen those though.    But yeah, congratulations on still being in existence. 

Oh please. So GS has spies, or rather there are people in every alliance looking for their 15 minutes - so what? I am sure IRC was on the verge of collapse, and only...what? saved them? How did that work - if we are so inept and terrible, which is clear from all these chatlogs, how is that we didn't fold as predicted?

And yeah, when you get ganged up on by the largest alliance in Eve with their followings of pets, surviving is better than not. Which was the original point - people are in fact pretty impressed that IRC has managed to hold out against all the GS pets.

[Berkut]

Goons, people of SA, do anything & everything for sheer laugh & humilation factor. Eve is no different.

This part is correct. They are simply griefers, albeit very good ones.

You can believe them if you want - lord knows plenty do. Mittani is very good at what he does.

[Berkut]

Der Fuhrer Darius JOHNSON:  "Okay guys! You will attack KenZoku/AAA/SE/C0VEN/Atlas/EXE/Skunk Works/god knows who else and IRC/ED at the same time and engage in POS warfare with both!  What could possibly go wrong?!  After you crush IRC, who will surely collapse as soon as their POS timers allow them (weeks), while the other group is directly invading you from next door, you can then turn around and...well you won't be able to do much of anything, but that's alright because you'll have Etherium Reach!!"

Suddenly retarded RA directors:  "Okay boss!"

you can't have it both ways MBM - it cannot be the case that they would never get into a war in ER because it would distract them from their main effort, while at the same time insisting that in fact they had good reason to believe that it would not be a distraction, and IRC/ED would fold quickly, and without GS involvement anyway.

[besuchov]

I wouldnt be overly surprised if it went something like this:
Goons informing RA that their role in the Great War(tm) is to open a secon front against AAA
RA deciding that getting their gangs wiped out by AAA isnt so fun after all and decides to go for some roams in IRC space instead.
IRC gets pissed (or just decides this is a convenient excuse to get more space) and starts a full scale invasion of RA systems
Goons notices and goes, "wtf RA you are not fighting AAA like you said, whats up?"
RA plays innocent and says that they are under attack. Goons do what they can to end the war using some metagaming tools or other(spies, bluffing or whatever) but when IRC tries to back out it turns out that RA wasnt really intressted in leaving this war after all...

I dont think the goons wanted this war, its not really in their intresst. But i do think there are various entities in the anti-ken alliance that would much rather have their pew-pew closer to home, against smaller foes and for more space for themselves, and does their best to find an excuse to do so.

Personally i was quite impressed to see IRC hold togeather and fight back even when they started to loose space to majesta, everyone expected them to fall apart (perhaps even they did) and looking back at the fate of other alliances in similar situations by conventional logic they should have. After holding out til Solar Fleets intervention removed majesta from the equation it looks like there is a very intressting fight to be had in this area of space

[MadBurgerMaker]

So it was a bluff? To what ends? What was Mittani trying to accomplish with this bluff - that apparently worked, since in fact IRC agreed to the terms?

If this was NOT what GS and RA wanted, why did RA and GS attack IRC after IRC agreed to their terms? Why were the terms even offered, except to get some more LOLZ?

GS offereed a deal to IRC - end the war against RA, and the theft would be returned. You are claiming that they could not have concluded that bargain if they wanted to - so why make it, if in fact you don't want to be fighting?

Your sequence of events makes no sense at all - if GS and RA really did not want to fight IRC, then why would they attack IRC after IRC agrees to go hat in hand and beg for their stuff back?

TITTS was in possession of all that stuff, not Mittani.  I don't know what else to tell you.

Possible reasons for the terms:  Getting IRC out of Insmother so RA could go on the offensive and kick your asses?  Buying time to get more of your stuff out of your systems?  Confusing your idiot leadership?  They all seem to actually have happened.

Reasons for GS and RA attacking after the terms were agreed to:  I'm not entirely sure why they (RA, not GS, since GS isn't invading Etherium Reach) would ever trust you again?  IRC/ED invaded RA space while they were at least friendly to GS (I don't know what your standings were between each other).  Why would they give you time to rebuild your capital fleet so you can just attack again?  That would be stupid.  Just like us initiating the war in the first place would be stupid. 

That seems clear.

Well, if you made sense, it would help things along. 

Oh please. So GS has spies, or rather there are people in every alliance looking for their 15 minutes - so what? I am sure IRC was on the verge of collapse, and only...what? saved them? How did that work - if we are so inept and terrible, which is clear from all these chatlogs, how is that we didn't fold as predicted?

I don't know what saved you.  I don't particularly care, really.  I just know what I read.  Your leadership was panicking and fighting with each other.  A collapse of some sort looked imminent.  Sorry it didn't happen, I guess?

And yeah, when you get ganged up on by the largest alliance in Eve with their followings of pets, surviving is better than not. Which was the original point - people are in fact pretty impressed that IRC has managed to hold out against all the GS pets.

You haven't been "ganged" up on by the largest alliance in the game and "our pets."  You would notice a GS/RA/All Allies invasion of Etherium Reach.

you can't have it both ways MBM - it cannot be the case that they would never get into a war in ER because it would distract them from their main effort, while at the same time insisting that in fact they had good reason to believe that it would not be a distraction, and IRC/ED would fold quickly, and without GS involvement anyway.

Again:  Why not wait until after Delve and Querious (and Detorid/old Goon space for that matter) are secured before we go and steamroll your sorry asses in order to give Etherium Reach to RA?  Why force RA to fight a two front war?  Why involve UNL in something that seems to have really fucked them up? 

For the last time:  An RA/etc invasion of Etherium Reach, an area held by IRC and ED, two alliances who are directly next door to RA, at a time when RA/etc are committed to securing former Goon space and attacking/replacing/etc AAA POS's does not make sense, and would never make sense.  Opening a two front POS war is what we were trying to do to AAA, not Red Alliance.  This is really simple shit.

Besuchov:  GoonSwarm doesn't "inform" Red Alliance of their role in anything.  Despite what Berkut wants to think, RA is not, has never been, and, barring some incredible failure cascade, will never ever be, a GoonSwarm "pet."  RA, xXDeathXx, UNL, etc, were attacking AAA from that direction because AAA threw their lot in with KenZoku, among other reasons, and because it would help destroy KenZoku.  None of this had anything to do with IRC/ED, aside from them being blue to everyone not called Kenny, until suddenly there's this war with RA.

The options seem to be A) GoonSwarm wanted to get (their pet) RA involved in a two front war and essentially kill off UNL, B) Red Alliance leadership is incredibly stupid, C) IRC/ED attacked Red Alliance and it didn't go as planned.

I'm going with option C, since the other two don't make any sense.  RA isn't a GS pet, and we don't want them or UNL screwed over, and RA leadership isn't incredibly stupid.  They were spamming POS in Detorid and Scalding Pass in order to take those areas over, in addition to sieging AAA POS with xxdeath, etc at the time this started.  A war with IRC wouldn't be in anyones interest, unless they are called IRC or ED.

Here...you can see what has been going on:

http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/verite/20090205.png  BoB is destroyed.  Note the positions of GS, AAA, RA, UNL, IRC, etc.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png  Now. 

Tell me how an RA attack on IRC/ED in Etherium Reach would be beneficial to RA, GoonSwarm, etc, or anyone except IRC/ED (and AAA/Kenny/etc).

[Berkut]

Oh yeah, I am sure all those alliance all on their own decided to all attack ER at the same exact time without any input from their masters in GS.

RA may not dance to the GS tune as much as GS would like, but there is no doubt plenty of the other alliances do.

What is funny is that GS has become the BoB of Eve - the giant alliance that everyone loves to hate, but most people are too afraid to stand up to. And I include IRC in that - its not like before GS/RA betrayed them they were looking to kick goon ass - they were kissing it just like everyone else.

[Berkut]

The options seem to be A) GoonSwarm wanted to get (their pet) RA involved in a two front war and essentially kill off UNL, B) Red Alliance leadership is incredibly stupid, C) IRC/ED attacked Red Alliance and it didn't go as planned.

You forget option D, which Mittani stated was the case:

GS thought that IRC would fold almost immediately with their corp theft, so it made perfect sense to give their pets something to do and some space to grab.

Sadly, IRC was not quite as terrible as they are made out to be, and it didn't quite work out that way, so GS called in more and more pets to attack, and even that has largely failed.

I'm going with option C, since the other two don't make any sense.  RA isn't a GS pet, and we don't want them or UNL screwed over, and RA leadership isn't incredibly stupid.

Of course not, only OTHER alliances are led by morons, of course. Which must be why they just folded in weeks as predicted, cause they were so stupid. Oh wait...

  They were spamming POS in Detorid and Scalding Pass in order to take those areas over, in addition to sieging AAA POS with xxdeath, etc at the time this started.  A war with IRC wouldn't be in anyones interest, unless they are called IRC or ED.

Taking space is always in your interests, especially from terrible, idiotic leadership who your spied have told you is going to "failure cascade" at any moment.

What makes no sense is the argument that GS leadership stole a bunch of stuff from IRC, then offered to give it back in return for peace, then promptly broke that promise, all because they did NOT want a fight with IRC/ED.

THAT makes no sense, and is the singular fact that makes you story so silly.

[Berkut]

I wouldnt be overly surprised if it went something like this:
Goons informing RA that their role in the Great War(tm) is to open a secon front against AAA
RA deciding that getting their gangs wiped out by AAA isnt so fun after all and decides to go for some roams in IRC space instead.
IRC gets pissed (or just decides this is a convenient excuse to get more space) and starts a full scale invasion of RA systems

Seems possible - before GS made it clear that they would drop the hammer on IRC for daring to resist RA, IRC leadership seemed to be ok with the idea of a little war with RA. We had clear instructions, however, to keep the war to roaming gangs, and not escalate to POS warfare. RA had other ideas though.

I am not convinced that GS was not behind all this though - RA would never jump without permission. It could be the case that it took GS by surprise as well though.

Goons notices and goes, "wtf RA you are not fighting AAA like you said, whats up?"
RA plays innocent and says that they are under attack. Goons do what they can to end the war using some metagaming tools or other(spies, bluffing or whatever) but when IRC tries to back out it turns out that RA wasnt really intressted in leaving this war after all...

This is the part where MBM story really breaks down. The idea that the goons offer was a bluff is so silly it isn't even funny. Since TITTS had posession of the gear, that somehow means that GS wasn't calling the shots? Puh-leaze, that is so transparent it isn't even funny, and then of course TITTS promptly joins a GS alliance.

I dont think the goons wanted this war, its not really in their intresst. But i do think there are various entities in the anti-ken alliance that would much rather have their pew-pew closer to home, against smaller foes and for more space for themselves, and does their best to find an excuse to do so.

Seems plausible - of course, if you are GS and you ahve a spy at the director level of IRC and he is telling you IRC is about to fall apart and he can snatch their cap fleet...

Personally i was quite impressed to see IRC hold togeather and fight back even when they started to loose space to majesta, everyone expected them to fall apart (perhaps even they did) and looking back at the fate of other alliances in similar situations by conventional logic they should have. After holding out til Solar Fleets intervention removed majesta from the equation it looks like there is a very intressting fight to be had in this area of space

The problem, as I see it (and I am nobody in IRC, so take this with a HUGE grain of salt) is that I don't know what the end game can be.

Lets take a best case scenario - IRC/ED takes back the loop, then starts making real progress against RA and Friends. Maybe even starts hitting Insmother. Then what? We all know GS won't stand for that...will they take a break long enough from their war to come smack IRC down?

I honestly do not know.

[Berkut]

It's funny, my Nazi analogy notwithstanding, GS and their RA pets have made the exact same error - underestimate their enemies, and think they can just "knock off" a minor target real quick before they move on to the main course.

Apparently IRC/ED are not really Greece though.

I think the anaology ends there though - Eve really needs some kind of mechanism to make larger alliances less efficient to manage, but no such mechanism exists. So even though GS has kind of screwed this up, it is really a side show - their moon advantage is so huge they can afford to fight multi-front wars, and there really isn't much of a negative feedback mechanism to stop them, at least as far as the game is concerned.

I am curious (and people wondered this about BoB before GS "beat" them by the disband trick) if CCP would take active measures to keep someone from dominating the game too much.

[MadBurgerMaker]

Oh yeah, I am sure all those alliance all on their own decided to all attack ER at the same exact time without any input from their masters in GS.

Yes indeed.  Allies coordinating to kick someone's ass is totally unheard of without them all being pets.

RA may not dance to the GS tune as much as GS would like, but there is no doubt plenty of the other alliances do.

Like which ones?  I would like some examples of GoonSwarm pets that aren't absurd.  Pandemic Legion?  They reset GS every chance they get.  TCF?  They disappear for weeks at a time doing their own thing.  The Northern Coalition?  They've also already left to go do their own thing just during this invasion.  They did come back though.   How about KIA then?  No, we actually pay them, IIRC.  Who are these pets that all dance to the GoonSwarm tune? 

What is funny is that GS has become the BoB of Eve - the giant alliance that everyone loves to hate, but most people are too afraid to stand up to. And I include IRC in that - its not like before GS/RA betrayed them they were looking to kick goon ass - they were kissing it just like everyone else.

Did GoonSwarm recently become a large, hated alliance?  Is this a new development?  Oh wait...it's not. 

You forget option D, which Mittani stated was the case:

GS thought that IRC would fold almost immediately with their corp theft, so it made perfect sense to give their pets something to do and some space to grab.

Sadly, IRC was not quite as terrible as they are made out to be, and it didn't quite work out that way, so GS called in more and more pets to attack, and even that has largely

Our "pets," as described by you, were already doing something and were already POS spamming new space for themselves.  This is not a difficult concept to grasp.  Seriously.

Of course not, only OTHER alliances are led by morons, of course. Which must be why they just folded in weeks as predicted, cause they were so stupid. Oh wait...

Yeah, it has nothing to do with the RA leadership never having acted like retards or morons or anything.

Taking space is always in your interests, especially from terrible, idiotic leadership who your spied have told you is going to "failure cascade" at any moment.

What makes no sense is the argument that GS leadership stole a bunch of stuff from IRC, then offered to give it back in return for peace, then promptly broke that promise, all because they did NOT want a fight with IRC/ED.

THAT makes no sense, and is the singular fact that makes you story so silly.

See above.  I even provided pictures for you since you can't seem to understand the text.  The "pets" were already involved in taking space that isn't called Etherium Reach.  Your dumbshit leadership attacked said "pets," got conned by Mittani, totally panicked and started fighting amongst themselves and managed to get that sent to GF.com, and were only recently "saved" by the intervention of what I suppose are also GS pets (someone should let SOLAR know they're not doing what we say).

It's funny, my Nazi analogy notwithstanding, GS and their RA pets have made the exact same error - underestimate their enemies, and think they can just "knock off" a minor target real quick before they move on to the main course.

Apparently IRC/ED are not really Greece though.

I think the anaology ends there though - Eve really needs some kind of mechanism to make larger alliances less efficient to manage, but no such mechanism exists. So even though GS has kind of screwed this up, it is really a side show - their moon advantage is so huge they can afford to fight multi-front wars, and there really isn't much of a negative feedback mechanism to stop them, at least as far as the game is concerned.

I am curious (and people wondered this about BoB before GS "beat" them by the disband trick) if CCP would take active measures to keep someone from dominating the game too much.

  My goodness.  You really have no idea what's been going on, do you?  That certainly does explain everything you've been saying.




Edit:  Anyway:  Ivan, if you see this in this mess of a "conversation," I sent you some isk for helping with the Brutix.  If it's not enough, let me know.  Thanks again.