Grand Hungarian Politics Thread part 3

[Tamas]

This will be my all-encompassing Hungarian thread.

I intend to write a general summary of the current state of events, what prompted the opening of the thread is that the whole gypsy business is deteriorating quite fast.

For quite some months now, there is a serial killer / group of serial killers on the loose.  Him/they, every few months, choose a village with a gypsy neighborhood in it, go to the outmost gypsy house, and murder the inhabitants during the night, luring them out (sometimes by setting the house on fire) and shooting them with shotgun(s).

Apparently, this has prompted some of the gypsy villages to organize armed patrols (armed as in axes, pitchforks and whatnots) and it took only a few days of existence for these groups to create incidents. At one village, a family was crossing it in a SUV, which apparently scared the gypsy militia, they blocked their way with cars and forced the family out of the SUV, their only luck was that someone from the "militia" recognized them as inhabitants of a neighboring town so they were not lynched for driving a big car.

Another incident in the same region happened when two police officers on leave were going home from hunting, and 30-40 gypsies armed with the aformentioned medieval mob weaponry stopped their car as suspicious and wanted to server out justice but again luckily violence was prevented. This luck cannot go on for long, though.

[Ed Anger]

 

[Neil]

So mobilize the army.  Call it an insurrection and maintain the state's monopoly on the legitimate use of force.

[citizen k]

Hungary remembers picnic that cracked Iron Curtain
By PABLO GORONDI, Associated Press


SOPRONPUSZTA, Hungary – It was a picnic that changed the course of history.

Twenty years ago Wednesday, members of Hungary's budding opposition organized a picnic at the border with Austria to press for greater political freedom and promote friendship with their Western neighbors.

Some 600 East Germans got word of the event and turned up among the estimated 10,000 participants. They had a plan: to take advantage of an excursion across the border to escape to Austria.

Hungarian President Laszlo Solyom and German Chancellor Angela Merkel took part in festivities Wednesday marking the 20th anniversary of the "Pan-European Picnic," which helped precipitate the fall nearly three months later of the Berlin Wall.

"Hungarians gave wings to the East Germans' desire for freedom," Merkel told an audience that included politicians, diplomats, former East German refugees and several of the picnic's organizers.

One of the key factors allowing the Germans to escape: the decision by a Hungarian border guard commander not to stop them as they pushed through to freedom.

"It was an incredible experience for them," said the guard, Lt. Col. Arpad Bella, remembering the scene as the East Germans marched up the road to the border gates at Sopronpuszta and crossed into Austria.

"They embraced, they kissed, they cried and laughed in their joy. Some sat down right across the border, others had to be stopped by the Austrian guards because they kept running and didn't believe they were in Austria," said Bella, 63, during an interview where the gates once stood.

Bella said he and five of his men had been expecting a Hungarian delegation to cross by bus, visit a nearby Austrian town as a symbol of the new era of glasnost — or openness — under reformist Soviet leader Mikail Gorbachev, and return to Hungary.

Instead, at the planned time of 3 p.m., 150 East Germans approached the border gate, which had been closed since 1948.

"I had about 20 seconds to think about it until they got here," Bella said. "Had the five of us confronted the Germans, they would have (overwhelmed us)."

Once the initial group got through hundreds more East Germans joined them. Among the 600 were many young people and families with small children, Bella said.

Laszlo Nagy, one of the organizers of the picnic, said he was startled by the East Germans' actions, who left behind hundreds of cars and other possessions near the border for the chance to make the short walk to a new life in the West.

"Some of them were waiting for this moment for 20 or 30 years," Nagy said. "They left behind everything ... because freedom has the greatest value."

Dirk Mennenga was one of the "Ossies," a nickname for East Germans, who made it to Austria on that day. He had come to Hungary from Dresden.

"We had planned beforehand that we would try to cross the border through Hungary," Mennenga said. "We didn't know how easy or difficult it would be."

After seeing flyers promoting the picnic, Mennenga thought the event could provide an opportunity to escape West.

"It was a very emotional situation," Mennenga said. "There was a sole border guard. A young Hungarian man kept pointing the way and before we knew it we were in Austria."

While Bella was unaware of the East Germans' intentions, behind the scenes the Hungarian government had already decided that it would somehow let them go West.

Miklos Nemeth, Hungary's last prime minister of the communist era, said the picnic and the East Germans' breakthrough on that day was one in a series of steps that brought democracy to most of the Soviet bloc within a year.

"It was a planned process on behalf of the government, but it was a transition where everyone was also seeking to secure their own future," Nemeth said.

With 80,000 Soviet troops stationed in Hungary, Nemeth said it was difficult to know how Moscow would react to the unprecedented events.

"In my mind this was an important event, a test," Nemeth said. "And fortunately, Arpad Bella ... although he did not get any information, he decided in the right way."

Tens of thousands of East Germans had traveled to Hungary as expectations mounted that the more moderate Communist country might open its borders to the West.

They lived in makeshift shelters in Budapest on the grounds of the West German Embassy and at a tent city set up by a Catholic parish.

In the weeks after the picnic, East Germans continued to make attempts to cross the border, although many were still turned back. Then, on Sept. 11, Hungary began allowing all East Germans to travel West.

Bella continued his career as a border guard for several more years before retiring in 1996, later even working as a consultant on developing aspects of the Schengen agreement, which now allows for borderless travel within 25 European countries.

"I didn't think of myself as a hero. How could I? I wasn't even sure I'd be around for another week," Bella said. "If the Russians had wanted to come, they would have swept us aside like nothing."

At the commemoration, Merkel also met with Bella and other participants of the 1989 event. She described Bella as a "great man in history" and thanked him for his "contributions to freedom."

For Nagy, the significance of the events of Aug. 19 has grown over the past 20 years.

"At the time, we didn't feel like we were making history," Nagy said. "It was the world's greatest garden party."

[Tamas]

There is an interesting, err I mean sad thing going on in one of our major cities, incidentally the one which won the title "cultural capital of europe 2010"

So their socialist (governing party) mayor went into a coma due to a car accident, and recently his replacement was elected, member of the major opposition party (which is destined to become government next year).

Now, the downfall of the current governing party is so clear, that their power goes away by the day. State TV firing the loudly leftie employees etc.

However in this city, Pécs, what is shown is just how much of a bunch of gangsters our politicans are.

The waterworks of the city, giving water to 240k people, is owned by the city, and a private French company (51%-48%). The 48% share was sold by the socialists, so the opposition was left out of the deal, and apparently they did not like it one bit.
When their mayor took power they started claiming the French are "taking too much profit", wanted them to GIVE BACK their share willingly. Of course they refused.
What did the city's democratically elected stateman order? He (well, his staff, of course) hired private security guards (thugs) and DID NOT LET THE MANAGERS IN. To the waterworks.
The far-right propaganda machine, in alliance with the mayor's party, also started spouting crap like the French planned to poison the waters or something like that.

This is like one of our main cities beside Budapest. Being its mayor is one of the most prestigous positions in the country. And he takes over a business like he was a mob boss.
And this is the country I live in.

[The Brain]

What do you want from us? I think most people here are willing or eager to nuke Hungary.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

There is an interesting, err I mean sad thing going on in one of our major cities, incidentally the one which won the title "cultural capital of europe 2010"

So their socialist (governing party) mayor went into a coma due to a car accident, and recently his replacement was elected, member of the major opposition party (which is destined to become government next year).

Now, the downfall of the current governing party is so clear, that their power goes away by the day. State TV firing the loudly leftie employees etc.

However in this city, Pécs, what is shown is just how much of a bunch of gangsters our politicans are.

The waterworks of the city, giving water to 240k people, is owned by the city, and a private French company (51%-48%). The 48% share was sold by the socialists, so the opposition was left out of the deal, and apparently they did not like it one bit.
When their mayor took power they started claiming the French are "taking too much profit", wanted them to GIVE BACK their share willingly. Of course they refused.
What did the city's democratically elected stateman order? He (well, his staff, of course) hired private security guards (thugs) and DID NOT LET THE MANAGERS IN. To the waterworks.
The far-right propaganda machine, in alliance with the mayor's party, also started spouting crap like the French planned to poison the waters or something like that.

This is like one of our main cities beside Budapest. Being its mayor is one of the most prestigous positions in the country. And he takes over a business like he was a mob boss.
And this is the country I live in.

that does not a company give, only a lot of problems with either the EU or France.

[Agelastus]

Him/they, every few months, choose a village with a gypsy neighborhood in it, go to the outmost gypsy house, and murder the inhabitants during the night, luring them out (sometimes by setting the house on fire) and shooting them with shotgun(s).

State TV firing the loudly leftie employees etc.

What did the city's democratically elected stateman order? He (well, his staff, of course) hired private security guards (thugs) and DID NOT LET THE MANAGERS IN. To the waterworks.
The far-right propaganda machine, in alliance with the mayor's party, also started spouting crap like the French planned to poison the waters or something like that.

This is the Europe people want me to embrace with open arms?


---------

Seriously though, are there no leads at all on those serial killers/thugs. Do you think someone is protecting them? Given Hungary's attempt to protect its' Jews in WWII, I wouldn't have expected Hungary to have the level of predujice against Gypsies that your posts are implying; obviously, I am wrong, but I am wondering why?

Can you enlighten me, please?

[Duque de Bragança]

I havn't heard of that one yet in French media, yet.

Water companies are not that popular here but not to that extent.
Which French company is it btw? Veolia/Vivendi i.e former Générale des Eaux?

If there's trouble, Sarko will jump to the defense don't worry

Guess the Sarko effect is over in Hungary. If it existed at all, that is.

[Martinus]

I wonder if this could be the same serial killer who killed 6 million Jews during 1939-1945. I guess he could have laid low for the intervening period.

[Martinus]

Seriously though, I love how you downplay the actual anti-Roma violence (a "serial killer" who murders whole families, in the best/worst tradition of nazi militia thugs) and at the same time overplay the potentially violent incidents of the Romas trying to defend themselves - which so far apparently haven't hurt anyone, but it is "just a matter of time".

If the state cannot or does not wish to defend its citizens, it is only right for them to organize to defend themselves.

[Tamas]

Seriously though, I love how you downplay the actual anti-Roma violence (a "serial killer" who murders whole families, in the best/worst tradition of nazi militia thugs) and at the same time overplay the potentially violent incidents of the Romas trying to defend themselves - which so far apparently haven't hurt anyone, but it is "just a matter of time".

If the state cannot or does not wish to defend its citizens, it is only right for them to organize to defend themselves.

If you read on you see the perpetrators have been caught already.

And I did not downplay the serial killers. It is just that foolish and scared mobs of people ( gypsy or otherwise) can only make things worse.

Latest gypsy news was, btw, that some people organized a long march from one of the troubled towns to Budapest, they hoped to have thousands of gypsies join them, but none volunteered, so it will be only the dozen or so organizers.

[Martinus]

I read about the anti-Roma violence in Hungary on several internet websites. All stressed the suspicion that the police may be turning a blind eye to the attacks.

I have heard or read nothing to suggest these are isolated incidents or done by a small group of people that have no tacit backing of the Hungarian populace. And frankly, you have shown yourself to be an anti-Roma racist often enough to challenge your credibility on this.

[citizen k]

Thousands of Hungarian firemen confirm their oath of office outside the parliament to protest against austerity measures in the 2010 budget in Budapest October 19, 2009. The government has proposed cutting its spending in the budget which is required to keep its deficit at the level agreed with the International Monetary Fund (IMF).
REUTERS/Laszlo Balogh

[jimmy olsen]

Seriously though, I love how you downplay the actual anti-Roma violence (a "serial killer" who murders whole families, in the best/worst tradition of nazi militia thugs) and at the same time overplay the potentially violent incidents of the Romas trying to defend themselves - which so far apparently haven't hurt anyone, but it is "just a matter of time".

If the state cannot or does not wish to defend its citizens, it is only right for them to organize to defend themselves.

If you read on you see the perpetrators have been caught already.And I did not downplay the serial killers. It is just that foolish and scared mobs of people ( gypsy or otherwise) can only make things worse.

Unless I missed it twice, I don't see that written in the opening paragraph.