Converting to Judaism in ancient times

[The Minsky Moment]

I can't think of any other mainstream religion that banned people from worshipping on the basis of race as late as the 1970s . . .

Second to that there must have been some Church segregation in the US South into the seventies no?  Possibly still is?

De facto yes, but that is different from a rule banning people of a certain race from worshipping in any church of that sect.

[Neil]

Well, ok there were others. My point is it wasn't christianity as a whole.

Was there actually a major Christian sect that wasn't a state church?

[Neil]

If someone believes they are God I could not care less, if they keep it to themselves.

Well fuck you too.

[Sheilbh]

Really? What other large, or even moderately sized Christain sect argued that Blacks were damned simply for their skin color?

I think the South African Dutch Reformed Church.  But you'd expect that.

The problem you face is that the definition of what is and who is Christian is still relevant today.  You cant ignore the two thousand years of history and pretend it doesnt have an impact of your faith today.

Definitions are important.

I agree.

[viper37]

If someone believes they are God I could not care less, if they keep it to themselves. The point is that Jews for Jesus wants other people to accept them as "Jews" for the purpose of misleading them.

Now, only the profoundly stupid are likely to be actually mislead it is true. Thing is that to most 'real' Jews it is fucking annoying to have Christians engage in these antics, claiming a kinship by religion or ethnicity that is non-existant - like having a particularly obnoxious marketer claiming to be your aunt for the purpose of selling you shit you don't want, when in reality the person is descended from folks who used to hunt your ancestors down and kill them on occasion.

If I thought these clowns were in any way sincere in believing they were both Christians and Jews at the same time, I'd think they were excentric but basically I would not care. Thing is that they aren't, it is all a sham designed specifically to target Jews for conversion.

Are there Jewish missionaries, seeking converts, bringing the word of God to the people of the world or is this just a Christian thing?

[Valmy]

Are there Jewish missionaries, seeking converts, bringing the word of God to the people of the world or is this just a Christian thing?

There is no Jewish commandmant to spread the faith while there is a Christian one to do so.  The Jews do do more outreach these days but usually that is directed at keeping Jews Jewish and not converting the gentiles.

[The Brain]

If everyone were to become Jewish where would they get their organs?

[Malthus]

Are there Jewish missionaries, seeking converts, bringing the word of God to the people of the world or is this just a Christian thing?

Mainstream Judaism does not prostheletize. At all. There are Jewish "missionaries", but they are typically Orthodox Jews seeking to recruit other Jews to their sects.

In mainstream Judaism, converting to Judaism is possible but not supposed to be encouraged. In point of fact, there is no particular religious reason to become a Jew, since it mainly has burdens with no benefits (in the Jewish religion, non-Jews are just as likely to be considered "righteous" as Jews, in fact it is easier because they have fewer commandments they are supposed to follow).

There may be some wacky sects of Jews who aggressively seek to convert, but if so, I haven't heard of them; it certainly is not normal. Jews view such behaviour with deep suspicion; the overall impression is that it is, above all else, quite rude and pointless.

[Caliga]

Correct, Jews do not ever proselytize and in fact discourage people from converting to Judaism.

I think I've related this story on Languish before, but I have a friend who did in fact convert to Judaism.  His background was as a Latter-Day Saint but he had 'explored' his spirituality for quite some time prior to the move to Judaism and even dabbled with Wicca for a while.

At the time he began his conversion, he was dating a Jewish girl (who is now his wife) and he insisted his interest in Judaism had nothing to do with her faith or pleasing her family or anything.  I know it sounds fishy, and to me it's likely he was interested in her faith, but he's a deeply spiritual guy so his interest certainly grew to be more than just that, if it was that at all.

Anyway, so he went to her rabbi and told him he was interested in becoming a Jew and the rabbi actually said something to the effect of, "No, you may not become a Jew."  So he kinda put that desire aside for a while but continued to read about Judaism and started attending services with her, and he went back to the rabbi again a few months later and essentially begged him to reconsider.  This time, the rabbi said somethng to the effect of "I'm impressed by how much you've learned about Judaism, but your zeal may be temporary and this is an earth shattering decision which you need to think on longer."  So he studied more and approached the rabbi a third time, and the third time the rabbi agreed to instruct him.

Apparently, the Jews have a tradition whereby anyone openly asking for conversion MUST be refused twice and then at the rabbi's discrection can begin being instructed.  So later the rabbi said he had wanted to accept him as a potential convert the second time but was tradition-bound not to.

I think it took the guy like 3 years to finish the conversion process, during which time he had to go to Hebrew school (he was the one guy there who wasn't like ten years old  ) and he actually had to be ritually circumcised... I say 'ritually' because he'd been medically circumcised as an infant, but because male Jews MUST be ritually circumcised, they had to do some thing where they drew blood from his penis and consecrated it to God by burning it or something.

When the process was completed, he changed his surname to Barak (IIRC converts are asked to take a new Jewish surname and are given a small list of names to choose from), and kept his given name because it was already of Hebrew origin.

Now, he is considered to have been a Jew from birth and it's considered extremely rude to treat him differently than any other Jew... in fact, Jews are to speak of converts as if they were always Jewish and to not remind them that they were ever anything else.  The thinking is that, if some desperately yearns to be a Jew, despite the heavy discouragement, then they truly have a Jewish soul and somehow got separated from their people... so in this case the conversion represents a homecoming of sorts.... and that's exactly how he described the process.

[Valmy]

Mainstream Judaism does not prostheletize. At all. There are Jewish "missionaries", but they are typically Orthodox Jews seeking to recruit other Jews to their sects.

In mainstream Judaism, converting to Judaism is possible but not supposed to be encouraged. In point of fact, there is no particular religious reason to become a Jew, since it mainly has burdens with no benefits (in the Jewish religion, non-Jews are just as likely to be considered "righteous" as Jews, in fact it is easier because they have fewer commandments they are supposed to follow).

There may be some wacky sects of Jews who aggressively seek to convert, but if so, I haven't heard of them; it certainly is not normal. Jews view such behaviour with deep suspicion; the overall impression is that it is, above all else, quite rude and pointless.

Well there is a religious reason to accept the Torah and be a righteous gentile and so forth.  It is sort of like being a Jew only you don't have to do as much.

I think theoretically the Jews are supposed to encourage all of us gentiles to do that but they rarely bother.

[Malthus]

Mainstream Judaism does not prostheletize. At all. There are Jewish "missionaries", but they are typically Orthodox Jews seeking to recruit other Jews to their sects.

In mainstream Judaism, converting to Judaism is possible but not supposed to be encouraged. In point of fact, there is no particular religious reason to become a Jew, since it mainly has burdens with no benefits (in the Jewish religion, non-Jews are just as likely to be considered "righteous" as Jews, in fact it is easier because they have fewer commandments they are supposed to follow).

There may be some wacky sects of Jews who aggressively seek to convert, but if so, I haven't heard of them; it certainly is not normal. Jews view such behaviour with deep suspicion; the overall impression is that it is, above all else, quite rude and pointless.

Well there is a religious reason to accept the Torah and be a righteous gentile and so forth.  It is sort of like being a Jew only you don't have to do as much.

I think theoretically the Jews are supposed to encourage all of us gentiles to do that but they rarely bother.

I don't think that a "righteous gentile" has to do anything religiously (with the exception of not worshipping multiple gods - still a no-no).

The seven "Noahide laws" (called that because they were given by God to Noah, the legendary ancestor of all humanity - and not a Jew) are pretty simple, as follows:

Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.

Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)

Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.

Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, bestiality and male homosexual intercourse (sorry Martinus  ).

Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.

Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4) (Sorry wierd rich Chinese people  )

Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly.

Do all seven, and you can be "righteous" even if you have never heard of Judaism (though of course idol-worshipping polytheists are still shit out of luck, as is Martinus).

[Caliga]

Woohoo!  I'm a righteous gentile. 

[Valmy]

I don't think that a "righteous gentile" has to do anything religiously (with the exception of not worshipping multiple gods - still a no-no).

It sorta requires you to believe in both the Torah and the Talmud and follow the will of the God of Israel.  How is that not religious?  Why would you do all that if you did not?

[Malthus]

I don't think that a "righteous gentile" has to do anything religiously (with the exception of not worshipping multiple gods - still a no-no).

It sorta requires you to believe in both the Torah and the Talmud and follow the will of the God of Israel.  How is that not religious?  Why would you do all that if you did not?

Not really - you could just do all that stuff because you don't particularly care to murder folks or eat living animals, and you don't happen to worship idols. An atheist could be a "righteous gentile" as long as he didn't go around bad-mouthing the Biblical God . The prohibitions are entirely negative except for the last.

[Valmy]

Not really - you could just do all that stuff because you don't particularly care to murder folks or eat living animals, and you don't happen to worship idols. An atheist could be a "righteous gentile" as long as he didn't go around bad-mouthing the Biblical God . The prohibitions are entirely negative except for the last.

I was under the impression you only got "credit" for doing a commandment if you did it to please God, not if you just happened to already like not eating pork and resting all day Saturday.