Converting to Judaism in ancient times

[Viking]

Also, I know you have an irrational hatred for the LDS Church so I'm not sure why I'm even trying, but who are you to judge that Mormons are 'bad' Christians?  Mormons of course think that they are the best Christians (and the only Christians who are actually correct in their practices). 

Mormons aren't 'bad' Christians since they aren't Christians at all.

I tend to agree, they believe Jesus is a space alien. And that instead of heaven we can live on as superbeings with god in outer space with all our sealed wives. Yes, they claim to be Christians.. but no Christians seem to be willing to return the favour.

[Caliga]

 

You guys are acting like there is some legal definition of "Christian".  Unless you are some flavor of believing Christian yourself, I don't understand the reason behind wanting to denigrate the Mormons.  Their theology is radically different from mainstream Christianity, yes, but I'm not sure why that makes them "not Christian".  They still believe in God and that Jesus was the son of God.

[Maximus]

Catholics aren't real christians either. They believe in the state church.

[Neil]

You guys are acting like there is some legal definition of "Christian".  Unless you are some flavor of believing Christian yourself, I don't understand the reason behind wanting to denigrate the Mormons.  Their theology is radically different from mainstream Christianity, yes, but I'm not sure why that makes them "not Christian".  They still believe in God and that Jesus was the son of God.

I'm qualified to define who is and who is not a Christian.  Mormons, for all their wackiness, are still inside of the Christian family.

[DisturbedPervert]

Anyway, I've never met a Mormon that was mean or a jerk or anything

Now, ex Mormons...

[The Minsky Moment]

How strictly monotheistic are the Samaritans?  That should give some kind of clue as to when/how they broke off, though it is probably just as likely that they became Monotheistic due to Jewish influence.

In The Evolution of God, which I'm reading now (on my new Kindle, wooo!), Robert Wright argues that the loss of Northern Israel and the subsequent Babylonian captivity helped "Yahwehism" go from a form a monolatrist    , perhaps pantheistic faith somewhat similar to the various Hindu denominations (or, more appropriately, Zoroastrianism) that view the various "Gods" as angles or emanations of a more important diety.  Really interesting argument.

Not quite sure what is being driven at in the last para, but what is almost certainly true was that the pre-Babylonian exile Israelites were not monotheist.  The Torah, Joshua, Judges, Samuel and the historical books are not monotheist.  God is one of many gods - more important and more powerful perhaps, but not the only.  God does not define himself in the OT as the one and only God.  Rather, he is the God of Abraham, the God of the Covenant.  The existence and even power of other gods is acknowledged even as they are denigrated,  A likelihood is that exposure to Zoroastrianism led post-exilic Judaism to form in a monotheistic direction.

BTW, I'm increasingly convinced that Judaism, mainline Christianity and mainline Islam all have way more in common with eacother than not, and could reasonably be called a single religion whose differences, largely for non-theological reasons, have been exaggerated.  Jews and mainline Muslims are better Christians than Mormons are, as Mormons really have more in common with pre-Monotheist Levantine faiths, like the religion of the Phoenicians.

Christianity and what we now know Judaism arise out of the same event - the destruction of the Second Temple.  That forced Judaism - which already was moving in that direction under the influence of Hellenistic philosophy --  to develop as a religion based on words and ideas, not stones and dirt.  At the same time, it both encouraged the Judeo-Christians to develop in a similar direction (i.e. the messianic promise of Jesus became more about renovation of the soul rather than justice in this world), while politically it prompted them to sever the ties with their Jewish roots.

Islam obviously borrows very heavily from both religions - the notion of the "seal of the prophets" presumes that the faith is not an innovation but merely a extension of the pre-existing ones (albeit a perfected one).

[The Minsky Moment]

re Mormons -

My own take is that the very beginning (paul) Christianity made a Faustian pact - they decided to consciously work within and adapt pre-existing folk traditions, in order to speed expansion.  Originally the idea was to clean up afterwards, but inevitably it became almost impossible to diffferentiate between the true core and all the embellishments and carry-overs.  So Christianity becomes an uneasy alloy of a now-lost core tradition mixed together with a grab-bag of regional and local folk beliefs and practices.  Something like Mormonism becomes possible with this kind of religious structure mixes with the heady, febrile environment of 19th century America.

[Malthus]

Hell, in Genesis "God" expressly refers to himself in the plural, and has "sons" who mate with human women to produce heros - very familiar to the Greek notions (and those of many other peoples). Nowhere is there any hint that other gods don't exist, merely that "thou shalt have no other before me". It is pretty clear that Jewish-style monotheism, in which there is only one god and it lacks much in the way of human attributes, was a relatively late development.

[Admiral Yi]

Hell, in Genesis "God" expressly refers to himself in the plural, and has "sons" who mate with human women to produce heros - very familiar to the Greek notions (and those of many other peoples).

[Savonarola]

Hell, in Genesis "God" expressly refers to himself in the plural, and has "sons" who mate with human women to produce heros - very familiar to the Greek notions (and those of many other peoples).

Genisis 6 versus 1-4:

When men began to multiply on earth and daughters were born to them,
the sons of heaven saw how beautiful the daughters of man were, and so they took for their wives as many of them as they chose.
Then the LORD said: "My spirit shall not remain in man forever, since he is but flesh. His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years."
At that time the Nephilim appeared on earth (as well as later), after the sons of heaven had intercourse with the daughters of man, who bore them sons. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown.

"Sons of Heaven" is more literally translated as "Sons of God."

[Caliga]

My own take is that the very beginning (paul) Christianity made a Faustian pact - they decided to consciously work within and adapt pre-existing folk traditions, in order to speed expansion.

Yes.  I can't say for sure this was occurring as early as you put it, but if you read History of the English People by Bede it clearly describes missionaries to the Anglo-Saxons going out of their way to equate pagan customs/beliefs with Christian ones--hence why Easter is celebrated with the egg motif and Christmas with the evergreen tree one.

[Malthus]

Hell, in Genesis "God" expressly refers to himself in the plural, and has "sons" who mate with human women to produce heros - very familiar to the Greek notions (and those of many other peoples).

Sav nailed it. Most versions expressly state "sons of god".

New Standard Version, Genesis 6:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=6&version=47

1When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. Then the LORD said,(A) "My Spirit shall not abide in[a] man forever,(B) for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

King James Version:

1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

[Queequeg]

Something like Mormonism becomes possible with this kind of religious structure mixes with the heady, febrile environment of 19th century America.

I disagree. Mormonism specifically draws upon the pre-Monotheistic heritage of the Abrahamic faiths, including bull imagery, polytheism and the notion of a mother diety.  It is more a 19th century style pseudo-intellectual bullshit mystical religion like the most esoteric parts of Masonism (that it drew very, very heavily upon).  It didn't develop a synthesis with the native religious traditions (which were and are far superior to Mormonism) so much as some BS ideas about early Judaism and misconceptions about Native Americans.

Hell, in Genesis "God" expressly refers to himself in the plural

IIRC this is pretty hotly debated as the plural in ancient Hebrew is sometimes confusing.

So Christianity becomes an uneasy alloy of a now-lost core tradition mixed together with a grab-bag of regional and local folk beliefs and practices.

IDK about this.  All religions do this to a lesser or greater extent; Islam has the Ka'bah, which even Muslims regard as suspect, and Judaism incorporated several Gods (including several variants of Yahweh, Elohim, various Wisdom gods incorporated as aspects, like in higher Hinduism, Zoroastiranism or Christianity). While I think Christianity does this more, this is, to me at least, a very clear strength.  We were forged in a period of massive urbanization in a global Empire, wherein people from thousands of different ethnic backgrounds interacted on a daily basis.   We picked up the greatest strengths of all the faiths we took, and changed with the local environment.  I think that legacy is the reason Christianity today is gaining far more converts than any other religion (Islam is growing mostly due to a lack of contraception) in places like China. 

[Caliga]

Hell, in Genesis "God" expressly refers to himself in the plural, and has "sons" who mate with human women to produce heros - very familiar to the Greek notions (and those of many other peoples). Nowhere is there any hint that other gods don't exist, merely that "thou shalt have no other before me". It is pretty clear that Jewish-style monotheism, in which there is only one god and it lacks much in the way of human attributes, was a relatively late development.

I think the typical Christian take on this passage is that the "sons of God" being referred to are angels.

[The Minsky Moment]

Genesis is an extraordinary literary collection of ancient near eastern religious folk traditions and legends, which unfortunately makes very awkward reading as a foundational text for any fundamentalist, monotheistic religion.