Converting to Judaism in ancient times

[viper37]

the punchline here is that the religious practice of the Judah-ites probably starts as an innovation as against an older, more established northerm religious tradition.  The collapse of the northern kingdom accelerates that process of differentiation, as not surprisingly the Judah-ite priests conclude the God has punished the north for its evil ways.  That process as it continues and is shaped in new directions by Judah's own fall and exile, results in a new religion of Judah-ism, as distinct from what had come before.  In this sense, the Jews are the "christians" to the "jews" of the old Ephraimite-dominate Israelite confederation.  With the Samaritans as the conscious (if not genetic) inheritors of the Ephraimite religious tradition.

very interesting, thanks

[The Minsky Moment]

The most famous convert to judaism in ancient times were the ancestors of Herod the Great. His family had only been jewish for a few generations.

You can see why an experience like that might make people be more cautious about performing more conversions . . .

[Queequeg]

There is no dispute that the Khazars existed or that they converted. What is disputed is whether Ashkenazic Jews are descended from them.

A lot of the earliest Seljuk rulers have biblical names, meaning they were probably either Jewish due to Khazar influence or Nestorian Christian.  Just don't tell a Turkish Nationalist that the core of the Seljuk dynasty was a bunch of Jews/Christians.   

[Queequeg]

I think that is the usual definition though: "Jews" = Judahites = the Jerusalem-centered cult.  If you start including other groupings that trace a lineage to the patriarchs, you sweep in others, including Muslims.  Of course the taxonomy is inherently somewhat arbitrary.  But it serves a useful purpose here I think - Judaism as we understand the term today formed out of a process of ideological definition that to a significant extent involved a conscious differentiation as against the religious tradition that gave rise to the Samaritans.  I guess one could say the Samaritans are a kind of Jew in the same sense that Jews are a kind of Christian.

How strictly monotheistic are the Samaritans?  That should give some kind of clue as to when/how they broke off, though it is probably just as likely that they became Monotheistic due to Jewish influence.

In The Evolution of God, which I'm reading now (on my new Kindle, wooo!), Robert Wright argues that the loss of Northern Israel and the subsequent Babylonian captivity helped "Yahwehism" go from a form a monolatrist    , perhaps pantheistic faith somewhat similar to the various Hindu denominations (or, more appropriately, Zoroastrianism) that view the various "Gods" as angles or emanations of a more important diety.  Really interesting argument.


BTW, I'm increasingly convinced that Judaism, mainline Christianity and mainline Islam all have way more in common with eacother than not, and could reasonably be called a single religion whose differences, largely for non-theological reasons, have been exaggerated.  Jews and mainline Muslims are better Christians than Mormons are, as Mormons really have more in common with pre-Monotheist Levantine faiths, like the religion of the Phoenicians. 

[Caliga]

BTW, I'm increasingly convinced that Judaism, mainline Christianity and mainline Islam all have way more in common with eacother than not, and could reasonably be called a single religion whose differences, largely for non-theological reasons, have been exaggerated.  Jews and mainline Muslims are better Christians than Mormons are, as Mormons really have more in common with pre-Monotheist Levantine faiths, like the religion of the Phoenicians.

er, that might work save for the fact that there are irreconcilable and directly contradictory differences between the three Abrahamic religions (e.g. Christians believe Jesus is the son of God, whereas the other two believe he is not the son of God).

Also, I know you have an irrational hatred for the LDS Church so I'm not sure why I'm even trying, but who are you to judge that Mormons are 'bad' Christians?  Mormons of course think that they are the best Christians (and the only Christians who are actually correct in their practices). 

[Ed Anger]

Both Spellus and Marti hate Mormons. Therefore, they sound fun.

[Caliga]

Both Spellus and Marti hate Mormons. Therefore, they sound fun.

They're really not bad people.  What they believe IS silly, but I don't think it's any sillier than mainstream Christianity.  I also like the fact that it has a gnostic component and the whole apotheosis bit.... it's got a tinge of the left-hand path which any worthwhile religion ought to have.

Anyway, I've never met a Mormon that was mean or a jerk or anything, or even seemed particularly stupid compared to any other hardcore religious type.

[Ed Anger]

Both Spellus and Marti hate Mormons. Therefore, they sound fun.

They're really not bad people.  What they believe IS silly, but I don't think it's any sillier than mainstream Christianity.  I also like the fact that it has a gnostic component and the whole apotheosis bit.... it's got a tinge of the left-hand path which any worthwhile religion ought to have.

Anyway, I've never met a Mormon that was mean or a jerk or anything, or even seemed particularly stupid compared to any other hardcore religious type.

I miss them coming to my door trying to give me the good news. 

[Caliga]

They're amusing to toy with.  I've had several conversations with young men who were doing their missionary service.  Once I told them I was a Jew so they wouldn't bug me... which didn't work.  But they stopped trying to proselytize and proceeded to quiz me about Judaism, since they admitted to knowing nothing about it.  So we had a 30 minute conversation in which I educated them about The Tribe.  They actually told me they found Jews "really neat" and didn't cast aspersions on them.

[Valmy]

They're really not bad people.  What they believe IS silly, but I don't think it's any sillier than mainstream Christianity.  I also like the fact that it has a gnostic component and the whole apotheosis bit.... it's got a tinge of the left-hand path which any worthwhile religion ought to have.

Anyway, I've never met a Mormon that was mean or a jerk or anything, or even seemed particularly stupid compared to any other hardcore religious type.

I have rather contempt for them for their original extremely racist views...and their continuing militantly homophobic views.  Also the way their church is structured and so forth.

They are nice people but I have yet to meet a religion with mean people so I am not sure why that is such a big deal.  Well ok the Baptists are rather insufferable.

[Valmy]

They're amusing to toy with.  I've had several conversations with young men who were doing their missionary service.  Once I told them I was a Jew so they wouldn't bug me... which didn't work.  But they stopped trying to proselytize and proceeded to quiz me about Judaism, since they admitted to knowing nothing about it.  So we had a 30 minute conversation in which I educated them about The Tribe.  They actually told me they found Jews "really neat" and didn't cast aspersions on them.

Yeah I have had conversations with them as well.  As you say they are nice even if the literature and crap they gave me was....a tad disturbing.

But I mean it is not like they are Jehova's witnesses or anything.

[Josquius]

Is it just me who finds it funny that Jerusalem used to be Jebus?
(i.e. a common odd pronounciation of Jesus)

They're really not bad people.  What they believe IS silly, but I don't think it's any sillier than mainstream Christianity.

How come?
With Christianity they at least have the excuse that it has its origins in the deep dark unknown past and one they get beyond genesis and all that sillyness a lot of what they say does square with real history (with silly religious exagerations).
The Mormons though have some guy in the modern age doing things and spouting his crap including crazy stuff that definatly in no way can be true.

[Caliga]

But I mean it is not like they are Jehova's witnesses or anything.

Jehovah's Witnesses are always old white ladies or negroes in my experience. 

Mormon missionaries always come in teams of two young clean-cut men that look Aryan.  They always seem kinda gay too. 

[Caliga]

I have rather contempt for them for their original extremely racist views...and their continuing militantly homophobic views.  Also the way their church is structured and so forth.

They are nice people but I have yet to meet a religion with mean people so I am not sure why that is such a big deal.  Well ok the Baptists are rather insufferable.

Oh come on, every Christian sect hates teh gays, other than the Episcopalians.  As for the racism, my mother-in-law's church used to have a token negro but they asked him to leave because his constant shouts of "AAAAAAAAAAMEN" and "PRAISE JEEEEEESUS" got out of control.  So the Baptists are just as bad, but you seemed to concede that anyway.

[Ed Anger]

I suddenly feel like testifyin'.