A Game of Thrones on HBO - I guess this is really going to happen.

[Berkut]

I am blurry on the timing of the agreement to have Cersei marry Robert.

Just because it turned out in the end that perhaps Lannister help was not needed doesn't mean that they did not need the help at the time of the agreement. And possibly more important than getting the Lannisters to help is making sure they don't actively help Aerys.

In any case, the agreement to marry Cersei to Robert was, AFAIK, strictly political. If Ned was acting as Roberts friend in the matter, I don't see him suggesting that at all.

[Viking]

I am blurry on the timing of the agreement to have Cersei marry Robert.

Just because it turned out in the end that perhaps Lannister help was not needed doesn't mean that they did not need the help at the time of the agreement. And possibly more important than getting the Lannisters to help is making sure they don't actively help Aerys.

In any case, the agreement to marry Cersei to Robert was, AFAIK, strictly political. If Ned was acting as Roberts friend in the matter, I don't see him suggesting that at all.

Lyanna dies during Roberts revolt towards the end. At the time Robert marries a Stark and Jon and Eddard marry Tulleys. The alliance which overthrows the king is Baratheon, Stark, Arryn and Tulley.

After Jamie kills the king and opens the gates of Kings Landing to the rebels Ned and Robert are sad, Ned goes home, Jon becomes Roberts adviser. Robert then marries Cercei at a moment of weakness (the woman he loves is dead, his fosterbrother has left).

[Berkut]

I am blurry on the timing of the agreement to have Cersei marry Robert.

Just because it turned out in the end that perhaps Lannister help was not needed doesn't mean that they did not need the help at the time of the agreement. And possibly more important than getting the Lannisters to help is making sure they don't actively help Aerys.

In any case, the agreement to marry Cersei to Robert was, AFAIK, strictly political. If Ned was acting as Roberts friend in the matter, I don't see him suggesting that at all.

Lyanna dies during Roberts revolt towards the end. At the time Robert marries a Stark and Jon and Eddard marry Tulleys. The alliance which overthrows the king is Baratheon, Stark, Arryn and Tulley.

After Jamie kills the king and opens the gates of Kings Landing to the rebels Ned and Robert are sad, Ned goes home, Jon becomes Roberts adviser. Robert then marries Cercei at a moment of weakness (the woman he loves is dead, his fosterbrother has left).

Ahhh, for some reason I was thinking that marrying Cersei was the price for Lannister help, but of course that makes no sense, since the Lannisters joined after the Trident, when Lyanna was still alive.

So why did Robert marry Cersei?

Ned had bailed on Kings Landing after being disgusted with the killing of the the Targaryens, so I would say his not being there was more a matter of him being pissed off than anything else - not sure if his being there would have changed Roberts decision to marry Cersei, but I guess I am not really sure what motivated that decision in any case.

He needed an heir, I guess, so he had to find someone to marry, and cementing an alliance between Baratheon and Lannister made sense at that point? Not really sure, to be honest.

[Berkut]

I think we can all agree that at the end of the day, the entire mess was all Lyanna's fault, for being such a whore.

[DisturbedPervert]

Ned had bailed on Kings Landing after being disgusted with the killing of the the Targaryens, so I would say his not being there was more a matter of him being pissed off than anything else - not sure if his being there would have changed Roberts decision to marry Cersei, but I guess I am not really sure what motivated that decision in any case.

Ned bailed to go get Lyanna, and then took Jon to the North out of reach of Robert

[Viking]

Ahhh, for some reason I was thinking that marrying Cersei was the price for Lannister help, but of course that makes no sense, since the Lannisters joined after the Trident, when Lyanna was still alive.

So why did Robert marry Cersei?

Ned had bailed on Kings Landing after being disgusted with the killing of the the Targaryens, so I would say his not being there was more a matter of him being pissed off than anything else - not sure if his being there would have changed Roberts decision to marry Cersei, but I guess I am not really sure what motivated that decision in any case.

He needed an heir, I guess, so he had to find someone to marry, and cementing an alliance between Baratheon and Lannister made sense at that point? Not really sure, to be honest.

Agreed, to be honest after Jamies behaviour Robert could have plausibly either executed him or exiled him on the grounds that no King can suffer a Kingslayer to live (viz Pizzarro). Tywin probably had written Jamie off as dead since he was in the Kings Guard.

He needed to marry somebody. Ned didn't replace Lyanna, so Tywin did.

[The Larch]

I don't think that is very fair at all -she was a child. She ahd no idea there was any kind of grander political struggle going on, and hence her "betrayal" was not at all in the context of "Fuck my dad, I am throwing my lot in with Cersei!".

Nobody is saying that she made a cold hearted calculation of her chances, she was a child (although verging on matureness) that was seduced by the glitter of the Lannister's and the court, which played into her fairy tale princess mentality. Anyway her age doesn't redeem her from the cardinal mistake of TURNING AGAINST YOUR OWN FAMILY. It was said that she was the less Stark-ish of the kids, being more of a Tully than a Stark, but even the Tully motto (Family, Duty, Honour), that she should have branded in her mind since she was a baby, reminded her about not doing exactly what she did.

No, I don't agree at all. Her father would have died anyway - his failure was not tactical, but strategic. If Sansa had not spilled the beans, it would have been something else.

I agree that Eddard's position was untenable, but he still had his chance, and he risked it with the deposition attempt. Sansa's spilling of the beans ruined that gamble, which admitedly was risky, but not utterly doomed.

Another way of looking at it: If Eddard Starks strategy for dealing with the Lannisters is reliant on the good sense of a 13 year old girl, he has already lost no matter what that 13 year old girl actually does. Do you think Cersei was vulnerable to having her plans destroyed utterly by what Tommen does, for example? Of course not.

I don't think that Eddard's plans were reliant on Sansa, I guess that Eddard simply didn't factor her into the equation, assuming that she'd be the dutiful daughter she had always been.

[The Larch]

Well, the first domino to fall was directly her fault...

Nonsense.  Eddard screwed up by announcing his intentions to Cersei.

Nobody is depriving Eddard of his fair share of blame for being such an utter fool.

[The Larch]

I am blurry on the timing of the agreement to have Cersei marry Robert.

IIRC, it was part of the peace agreement at the end of the war, in order to get stability for the kingdom, as the Lannisters, which were the richest and one of the most powerful families, were basically untouched by the whole war and had fresh armies, while the rest were tire and war-exhausted. The wedding, brokered by Arryn, was the price to pay in order to keep the Lannisters (and their money) at the new king's side.

[The Brain]

I liked the character Sansa's progression from very naive to fairly sophisticated while being under great pressure for long periods.

[The Larch]

Lyanna dies during Roberts revolt towards the end. At the time Robert marries a Stark and Jon and Eddard marry Tulleys. The alliance which overthrows the king is Baratheon, Stark, Arryn and Tulley.

After Jamie kills the king and opens the gates of Kings Landing to the rebels Ned and Robert are sad, Ned goes home, Jon becomes Roberts adviser. Robert then marries Cercei at a moment of weakness (the woman he loves is dead, his fosterbrother has left).

Robert and Lyanna weren't married, but engaged. Lyanna's abduction by Rhaegar, and the carnage that followed (Brandon and Rickard Stark, Ned's brother and father being killed by Mad King Aerys) is what triggered the civil war.

[The Larch]

I liked the character Sansa's progression from very naive to fairly sophisticated while being under great pressure for long periods.

Yup, that's the great thing about her episodes, IMO. She goes from being a head-on-the-clouds girl with a princess mentality to a budding player of the game of thrones in a couple of books.

[crazy canuck]

I don't think that is very fair at all -she was a child. She ahd no idea there was any kind of grander political struggle going on, and hence her "betrayal" was not at all in the context of "Fuck my dad, I am throwing my lot in with Cersei!".

She very much did throw her lot in with Cersie.  She made a concious choice to tell the Queen what her dad expressly told her not to tell the Queen and she did it for the "love" of her prince.

No, I don't agree at all. Her father would have died anyway - his failure was not tactical, but strategic. If Sansa had not spilled the beans, it would have been something else.

I dont think so.  If the Queen had never been tipped off Stark's plan would have worked.  Little Finger switched sides when he realized which way the wind was blowing.  As the book says, Cersei as able to get to him (once she knew what was happening - thanks to Sansa) and pay off Little Finger.

And again, with the direwolf, you are looking too much at the detail of what happened, instead of the overall context that it happened in. Her direwolf died because Robery was weak and incapable of resisting his wife in a meaningful manner. If she had backed Arya, would that suddenly turn Cersei into a reasonable person who would quit nagging her husband and scheming to have him killed? Of course not - it is a detail. Maybe if she had backed Arya, things would turn out differently in the details, but the overall problem and conflict is unchanged.

You are missing the context.  Stark questioned Sansa carefully as to what happened.  If she had told the truth then there would have been no sentence to carry out against anyone or anything because Stark would have had the evidence to confirm the what his other daughter had said and find that it was Rob who was at fault.  Cersei could not have done a thing about it.  The thing that empowered Cersei was that Sansa lied.

Another way of looking at it: If Eddard Starks strategy for dealing with the Lannisters is reliant on the good sense of a 13 year old girl, he has already lost no matter what that 13 year old girl actually does. Do you think Cersei was vulnerable to having her plans destroyed utterly by what Tommen does, for example? Of course not.

Stark's strategy was not reliant on his daugher.  He just needed her to keep her mouth shut about what she had heard him discuss with others.  Yes he made a mistake by telling her what would happen but all she had to do was not say anything as she was told to do by her father.   As stated above, she made a concious choice not to but instead to run to Cersei because she feared for her fairy tale wedding.

She was a pouty, petulent, lying young women who was about to be married - not a child.

[The Brain]

Btw I can't think up any contrived Kerry King joke.

[The Brain]

She was a pouty, petulent, lying young women who was about to be married - not a child.

Save it for the jury.