A Game of Thrones on HBO - I guess this is really going to happen.

[The Larch]

She really should be a babbling idiot at this point. Honestly, I don't know of ANY other character in the series (maybe Beric Dondarrion) who has had a shittier deal than Sansa, and largely (although not entirely) completely beyond her control.

Well, the first domino to fall was directly her fault...

Not really. She told Cersei about her father plans to leave Kings Landing, but I don't think that fundamentally changed the outcome really.

Eddard Stark was doomed the moment he told Cersei he knew about the kids and asked her to go into exile, and at the same time refused to bargain with Renly.

Blaming anything that happened after than on Sansa is missing the forest for the tree, IMO.

Eddard was crippingly honest, of course, no doubt about it, but IIRC it was Sansa's fault that Eddard was captured and the few loyal Stark soldiers butchered. She ruined his father's attempt at deposing Joffrey by depriving him of any element of surprise.

[The Larch]

I just read that girl's twitter. Shoot me now.

You'll get that at home shortly, don't worry. 

So, how long until your eldest reaches puberty?

[DisturbedPervert]

Obsidian to make a Wheel of Time RPG!!!11

http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=1193

That's horrible.  Obsidian should make Neverwinter Nights 3, or at least the spiritual successor. 

[crazy canuck]

She really should be a babbling idiot at this point. Honestly, I don't know of ANY other character in the series (maybe Beric Dondarrion) who has had a shittier deal than Sansa, and largely (although not entirely) completely beyond her control.

She was largely the author of her own demise.  She began as a character that was incredibly self centred and not that bright - someone who believed in fairy tale endings and even when she saw the worst in her "prince" whe still turned on her sister and even her father in order to  preserve her fairy tale ending.


If it wasnt for her going to the Queen her father would not have died and the history of the Kingdom would have been much different.  If it was not for her turning on her sister her dire wolf would not have died.

I agree that she starts to become a bit more intersting.  But it is still painful to read through the parts where she is involved even after that point.  She is kind of like Jack Bauer's daugher in 24 - especially in the early shows.  You know she is going to do something stupid and you just want the story teller to get to that point so you can get on with the interesting parts of the story. 

As I read through the series I wondered if her character is meant is a stark (no pun intended) justaposition to the Queen of Dragons (forget her name) who starts out as a completely powerless girl who is eager to please and becomes a self assured woman who becomes the most powerful person in the world. 

[Syt]

So, how long until your eldest reaches puberty?

Whenever it is, I hope there's something much worse than the Twilight books/movies that enthralls teenage hearts and minds.

[DisturbedPervert]

@IsaacBranFlakes AAAHH ISAAC (BRAN) WE HAVE TO HAE A STARK KIDS MEET UP ASAP TO CELEBRATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOVE SHMOPH (YOUR BIG SIS SANSA)

Ahhh, cmon, that is hilarious. The poor girl is just turning 14, what do you expect? She is a kid.

It is hilarious, and like Sansa too.  Now she just needs to perfect her reactions to bulbous veiny dwarf cocks.

[Berkut]

She really should be a babbling idiot at this point. Honestly, I don't know of ANY other character in the series (maybe Beric Dondarrion) who has had a shittier deal than Sansa, and largely (although not entirely) completely beyond her control.

She was largely the author of her own demise.  She began as a character that was incredibly self centred and not that bright - someone who believed in fairy tale endings and even when she saw the worst in her "prince" whe still turned on her sister and even her father in order to  preserve her fairy tale ending.

I don't think that is very fair at all -she was a child. She ahd no idea there was any kind of grander political struggle going on, and hence her "betrayal" was not at all in the context of "Fuck my dad, I am throwing my lot in with Cersei!".

If it wasnt for her going to the Queen her father would not have died and the history of the Kingdom would have been much different.  If it was not for her turning on her sister her dire wolf would not have died.

No, I don't agree at all. Her father would have died anyway - his failure was not tactical, but strategic. If Sansa had not spilled the beans, it would have been something else.

And again, with the direwolf, you are looking too much at the detail of what happened, instead of the overall context that it happened in. Her direwolf died because Robery was weak and incapable of resisting his wife in a meaningful manner. If she had backed Arya, would that suddenly turn Cersei into a reasonable person who would quit nagging her husband and scheming to have him killed? Of course not - it is a detail. Maybe if she had backed Arya, things would turn out differently in the details, but the overall problem and conflict is unchanged.

Another way of looking at it: If Eddard Starks strategy for dealing with the Lannisters is reliant on the good sense of a 13 year old girl, he has already lost no matter what that 13 year old girl actually does. Do you think Cersei was vulnerable to having her plans destroyed utterly by what Tommen does, for example? Of course not.

[Valmy]

Well, the first domino to fall was directly her fault...

Nonsense.  Eddard screwed up by announcing his intentions to Cersei.

[Berkut]

Well, the first domino to fall was directly her fault...

Nonsense.  Eddard screwed up by announcing his intentions to Cersei.

I kind of look at any blame assigned to Sansa for what happened like blaiming the left tackle for losing a football game because he missed a block on one play that resulted in a sack when in fact you lost the game by 25 points and couldn't score if your life depended on it all day.

Sure, it was a mistake, and you can create a chain of events that starts there and ends with losing the game, but to focus on that one particular event as important misses what is REALLY important.

It was not Sansa's fault that Ned Stark lost in the game of thrones - it was Ned Starks fault, and Cersei Lannisters and Tywin Lannisters fault. Sansa was just a detail.

[Viking]

You don't get a  blithering idiot to play a blithering idiot, you get a genius actor to play a plausible blithering idiot.

But I complained about child actors in general, not this one in particular... apparently teenagers today all do this...

[Berkut]

Well, the first domino to fall was directly her fault...

Nonsense.  Eddard screwed up by announcing his intentions to Cersei.

And this AFTER he had already been attacked by Jaime.

In fact, Jaime is a great example of the difference between how Cersei played and how Ned played. Jaime's attack on the Starks was NOT planned by Cersei, and likely screwed up her actual plans. And yet, this vastly larger wrench did not derail Cersei's plans, as opposed to Ned's being screwed up because a 13 year old girl blabbed about his plan to skip town.

A knight of the Kingsgaurd, the brother of the Queen and father of her children attacks the Hand of the King in the street, kills several of his men and wounds the Hand - and this is handled by the Queen with less disruption than the hands daughter blabbing about his plan to leave on the very day he is planning to leave??

Pfft, she probably knew he was leaving already, or had even had a plan in place for whatever he did. Ned was way out of his league from the moment he agreed to take the position as Roberts hand.

[Viking]

Well, the first domino to fall was directly her fault...

Nonsense.  Eddard screwed up by announcing his intentions to Cersei.

No, Eddard screwed up by not replacing Lyanna with another Stark or Stark friendly woman. His failure is being Robert's friend when Lyanna died, rather than his ally.

[Berkut]

Well, the first domino to fall was directly her fault...

Nonsense.  Eddard screwed up by announcing his intentions to Cersei.

No, Eddard screwed up by not replacing Lyanna with another Stark or Stark friendly woman. His failure is being Robert's friend when Lyanna died, rather than his ally.

They needed the Lannisters though - and IIRC, Cersei was the price for that help.

And really, how is saddling Robert with Cersei the actions of a friend? It is very much the actions of an ally, its not like Robert liked Cersei beforehand. That was a match that was strictly political.

Of course, given that, Robert completely fucked it up by alienating his new wife. Although, considering her relationship with Jaime, that alienation was probably inevitable.

[The Larch]

@IsaacBranFlakes AAAHH ISAAC (BRAN) WE HAVE TO HAE A STARK KIDS MEET UP ASAP TO CELEBRATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOVE SHMOPH (YOUR BIG SIS SANSA)

Ahhh, cmon, that is hilarious. The poor girl is just turning 14, what do you expect? She is a kid.

It is hilarious, and like Sansa too.  Now she just needs to perfect her reactions to bulbous veiny dwarf cocks.

I'd have chosen lemon pies, but that works too.

[Viking]

They (Robert and Ned) needed the Lannisters because they were both broken by her death. They needed the Lannisters because they didn't want to do something they were willing to do (besiege Kings Landing). As they arrived at Kings Landing with their army they were willing to siege the city and kill it's defenders. Jamie swaps side at the last moment "gifting" Robert the crown the moment before he seized it. The Lannisters were in no position to prevent Robert from taking the crown.

But then again the entire point of the story is corruption of the reign of Robert Baratheon. If he hadn't allowed the Lannisters to sow doubt about his right and ability to rule by seeming to be kingmakers, when they were no such thing, he would have lived longer.