Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[garbon]

Sure but American VPs don't normally comment on individual murders in Britain either.

Plus as I say I suspect Starmer/Number 10 are very happy with a series of headlines about pushing back on those comments (especially in the context of a leadership challenge).

Edit: I would add I think that is still further entrenching the American dominance of our discourse - even if you're defining yourself against DC it's still ultimately reactive and reinforcing their centrality.

Cool, there are lots of unprecedented things about the Trump administration.

A great way to get them to keep commenting is to give them attention.

[Jacob]

If you cover it, the coverage should be: "look what a tool Vance is, commenting on something like this. What did he say? Doesn't really matter, but the implications for US UK relations are not good. Who the fuck does he think he is?" 

[Sheilbh]

Also I sort of think we're not Americans. It's not a matter of whether or not the British media are "normalising" Trump. The British media don't matter. It's not our political system, they're not our government and how the BBC leads means nothing in American politics (I regularly think of the 2004 election when the Guardian did a letter-writing campaign to a swing county in Ohio - which swung even harder towards Bush ). I get there's a little bit of a difference now with British media companies going big in the US (the Guardian US edition sits between the WSJ and Washington Post in pageviews - and generates millions from US supporters) but I think it's pretty marginal.

I think the main reason it's a big story is becaue Starmer chose to respond in a quite splashy way. The way this story disappears with barely a trace is if the British government doesn't respond or just plays it down, which isn't what happened. And I think that is a story. The implications for US-UK relations are because of the way the UK government has responded more than what Vance has said.

I've no doubt Starmer believes what he's said. But also I think it is politically helpful for him. It moves the debate and focus from issues around Nowak's murder and the police onto a foreign leader politicising it. An American politician meddling in British politics is never popular (on either side), by a particularly unpopular American politician - plus being anti-Trump is very popular (even Reform voters preferred Harris). Particularly in the Labour Party, particularly when he's facing a challenge to his leadership.

[crazy canuck]

American VPs are typically not well covered in part because they don't have much power. JD Vance is known for spewing shit. Him spewing off about a dead kid is hardly a top story for Britain. We have much more significant things to deal with at home.

Exactly...our VPs are even less relevant than the King (unless/until the boss dies).

Part of me thinks it would be amusing if after the mid-terms the Democrats got to a functionally (I use that term because...Fetterman) 50-50 Senate split...as that could lead to Vance having to park his ass in the Senate chamber most of the time instead of being out and about causing trouble.  The other edge to that sword is that it would likely put him in the limelight much more (which could be good...or bad).

Perhaps in theory, but Dick Cheney was de facto the President

[Josquius]

I wonder what the solution is for the common language factor making Britain so America facing.

It's so obvious that culturally, economically, in terms of our interests, we should be looking far more at our neighbours instead.

[Richard Hakluyt]

It is not just about BBC viewing and watching middle class liberals though. There is strong evidence of the proto-fascist right in the UK being in the thrall of American right-wing social media, sites such as X and the AI Grok.

Take this story for example https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7pl7zj024o

This former policewoman has been placed in danger by the shortcomings of a US-based AI run by a malignant fascist. Both her and another wrongly-identified officer have had to relocate. This is even ignoring the fact that even if the attributions were genuine there should be no risk of a criminal right-wing mob appearing outside your home.

I never go on X or use Grok of course;and for blood pressure reasons avoid right-wing sites generally, so am reliant on the BBC to inform me of these doings.

[garbon]

It is not just about BBC viewing and watching middle class liberals though. There is strong evidence of the proto-fascist right in the UK being in the thrall of American right-wing social media, sites such as X and the AI Grok.

Take this story for example https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7pl7zj024o

This former policewoman has been placed in danger by the shortcomings of a US-based AI run by a malignant fascist. Both her and another wrongly-identified officer have had to relocate. This is even ignoring the fact that even if the attributions were genuine there should be no risk of a criminal right-wing mob appearing outside your home.

I never go on X or use Grok of course;and for blood pressure reasons avoid right-wing sites generally, so am reliant on the BBC to inform me of these doings.

While that is a story of personal tragedy, I think it is more worrying that politicians of two prominent British political parties are saying that the police force is now biased towards delivering better outcomes for people of colour over white people. And their key example is where a dying white victim was handcuffed and his killer was convicted and went to jail.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Yes, the principal policy concern is that British policing gives up their efforts to make discrimination on skin colour a thing of the past. Before your time but there were significant riots back in 1981 over police racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_England_riots which led to important changes to policing in the UK. The Scarman report (a response to the riots) was hugely important and led to many improvements in policing here. These improvements are in jeopardy if the right gets its way.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Just to add a semi-anecdotal point. I was talking with a senior retired copper a year or so back and asked him why the police seemed to be making so many mistakes these days. He told me that, in the Lancashire force, 85% of frontline officers had less than two years experience. ie they make mistakes because the job is difficult and complicated and they are novices. Also, whenever they got experience, the likely result was promotion away from the frontline. This is a problem that has been getting much worse in recent years it seems.

[crazy canuck]

I wonder what the solution is for the common language factor making Britain so America facing.

Perhaps the UK should consider joining the EU?   

[Sheilbh]

Just to add a semi-anecdotal point. I was talking with a senior retired copper a year or so back and asked him why the police seemed to be making so many mistakes these days. He told me that, in the Lancashire force, 85% of frontline officers had less than two years experience. ie they make mistakes because the job is difficult and complicated and they are novices. Also, whenever they got experience, the likely result was promotion away from the frontline. This is a problem that has been getting much worse in recent years it seems.

I agree - as I say I think there is an issue in the skill mix. And I do wonder if the cutting numbers by 10k in the first half of the 2010s and then getting back to the 2010 numbers over the last few years means there is just a very unstable mix of exprience. I also think - and I think this about nursing too - that it was a huge mistake to make the police a graduate profession.

But I think that is at the level of the rank and file and the problems at the top of cover-ups, circling the wagons, failing upwards etc do not seem particularly specific to the police. They seem endemic in the British state - whether it's the NHS or the civil service I think there is a real problem around a lack of accountability and responsibility. And I can't help but feel to Garbon's point you kind of see that in their approach to dealing with racism which is statements like the National Police Chief's Anti-Racism Strategy, which I think is just theory/sociology as a policy statement but I think basically nothing that you can do operationally, or hold people accountable to. I am being very basic but I do think we're not doing that basic thing of saying here is a standard and if you don't meet it you're fired or not promoted and maybe once we've got that sorted graduate to more sophisticated analyses (but I think it does still need to be tied to actual operational things/expectation).

Yes, the principal policy concern is that British policing gives up their efforts to make discrimination on skin colour a thing of the past. Before your time but there were significant riots back in 1981 over police racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_England_riots which led to important changes to policing in the UK. The Scarman report (a response to the riots) was hugely important and led to many improvements in policing here. These improvements are in jeopardy if the right gets its way.

To a point - I think there is a mixed record on reports following those riots or other examples of police racism like the investigation into Stephen Lawrence's murder. So my own view is that I think Lord Scarman's Report is part of what bedded in a "community leader" approach to policing (and other services) that I'm not sure has been that helpful any longer. I also think it is under threat from below - you think of the revolt of young British Muslim voters who do not feel represented by community leaders who engage on their behalf. But there may also be an evolutionary thing of what was very significant in the 1980s is a model that doesn't work in the 2020s.

On the other hand, I think the MacPherson Report is really important and did result in improvements even if some aspects of it (such as recording non-crime hate incidents) possibly need an update. But again that may be evolutionary and building on Scarman in important ways.

I wonder what the solution is for the common language factor making Britain so America facing.

We can't - I've said it before but my view is that the most important fact for Britain in the 21st century is that America speaks English. We didn't do a great firewall and develop a more national internet (which was probably a mistake). I think for what it's worth I think it's also how the UK ends up serving as quasi-dystopia for both left ("rainy fascist island"), right (whatever Vance is banging on about) or even centrists (here it's bits of and pieces of those two criticisms plus horror at NIMBYism) within American discourse.

And I think we need to be cautious of what we think this would "solve". The fourth biggest country in Western Europe is led by an explicitly post-fascist party (I know I bang on about it - but the FdI really genuinely have a fascist lineage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRwZ70JGRio and the youth groups in that film are the same that Giorgia Meloni joined at the age of 15). From recent polls it now looks fairly plausible that we'll have President Bardella in France next year (in particular he is now leading in the polls on all potential run-offs).

[Sheilbh]

Incidentally again on the particular case - which is really bad but I think also symptomatic of police conduct - I mentioned the FT reporting that Nowak's parents had to fight Hampshire Police over their attempts to issue statements that would frame it as a "racially aggravated incident".

The Times are reporting today that the Crown Prosecution Service also had to step in to prevent Hampshire Police from releasing a public statement describing Nowak as the aggressor (it described the incident as Nowak assaulting two men) and again that it was racially aggravated. It would have been unusual for the police to release a statement at that phase of the investigation/process - which the police positioned as necessary to prevent "disinformation" - and the CPS intervened to block it because it would jeopardise the integrity of the case.