The Off Topic Topic

[Valmy]

Today I realized it's been almost six years since Covid.  Holy crap does time fly.

This year will mark the 10th anniversary of the Brexit vote and Trump getting elected president.

10 years the Europeans could have used building an army. Instead we got bs co2 goals

Presumably you could have done both at the same time. 

[The Brain]

But my lord there is no such force!

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Today I realized it's been almost six years since Covid.  Holy crap does time fly.

This year will mark the 10th anniversary of the Brexit vote and Trump getting elected president.

10 years the Europeans could have used building an army. Instead we got bs co2 goals

Presumably you could have done both at the same time. 

unlikely, you need industry for that and "degrowth" was rather popular in the green circles that captured the eu ideologically.

[grumbler]

unlikely, you need industry for that and "degrowth" was rather popular in the green circles that captured the eu ideologically.

Really?  Can you link me to some mainstream EU politicians that talk favorably about "degrowth?" "Cause that sounds an awful lot like bullshit that you just made up.

[Josquius]

Yeah, the dominant conversation about green industry is about how much of a growth opportunity it is.

[Sheilbh]

Really?  Can you link me to some mainstream EU politicians that talk favorably about "degrowth?" "Cause that sounds an awful lot like bullshit that you just made up.

The European Parliament's hosted two conferences on "beyond growth" and "post-growth" in the last few years which are primarily conferences of people interested in degrowth (they're promoted on degrowth.info). Those conferences have been sponsored and attended by politicians from five of the European political familes (basically from the centre-right EPP to the hard-left). The aim is to promote and normalise conversations about de-growth.

I think they're mainly organised by Philippe Lamberts who's a very impressive Green MEP (I know about him because he's very good on tech regulation) but they've had heavyweight European speakers such as von der Leyen and Margrethe Vestager. They're not necessarily supportive (though some are - particularly within the Green parties) but I think it's an idea that's taken seriously and engaged with in Europe. FWIW I have actualy heard really good things about Jason Hickel's book on de-growth, though I've not read it - I doubt I'd agree with it (I come from the other extreme - that energy transition requires more of everything) but it sounds interesting so I'd probably enjoy it.

[Valmy]

Ok so they are engaging with those ideas. But are they actually pursuing policies about degrowth and blocking military measures because of it?

[Sheilbh]

Ok so they are engaging with those ideas. But are they actually pursuing policies about degrowth and blocking military measures because of it?

Put like that, no

Europe has significantly higher industrial electricity and gas prices than the US (150% and 350% higher respectively) - only the UK has more expensive electricity than the US. A large part of that is the recent energy shock and Europe's reliance on imported fossil fuels. However even before those shocks the prices were still 50-100% higher than the US (or China) which has an impact on deindustrialisation, particularly in very energy intensive sectors like arms. FWIW I also think the US shale boom v higher European energy and increased imports is a big part of the post 2008 divergence.

Part of it's just unfortunate geography. The US has abundant energy, Europe has coal. However many European countries have banned any fracking (even outside of shale, the UK has banned all new North Sea exploration). At the same time European installation of renewables collapsed in the 2010s as the response to the Eurozone crisis and the crash was austerity - one of the first things to go were subsidies to renewables and capital spending. Europe led the world in that industry. It's now in China and we're an importer, again. The choice is affordable renewables and increase dependence on China or trying to re-build that industry in Europe wih renewables that would increase the cost of energy from where it is now. Even with decarbonisation projections are that European energy costs by the middle of the century will be 50% higher than the US, China or India.

I don't think it's de-growth per se - I think it's a lack of seriousness - but I think an awful lot of Europe's issues (security, growth, its near neighbourhood) basically run through energy policy.

I'd add there are lots of basically Green nimbyism in Europe. In the UK, but also I've read recently about issues in the Netherlands and Germany, part of the challenge even with building renewables and grid infrastructure are things like the requirements around environmental impact assessments, the habitats directive etc. I think the Netherlands have recently basically pushed the bar for those requirements a lot higher when it's for things like grid and renewables.

(Weirdly this is picked up a bit in the Dan Wong letter I posted in the China Thread )

[Valmy]

I'd add there are lots of basically Green nimbyism in Europe. In the UK, but also I've read recently about issues in the Netherlands and Germany, part of the challenge even with building renewables and grid infrastructure are things like the requirements around environmental impact assessments, the habitats directive etc. I think the Netherlands have recently basically pushed the bar for those requirements a lot higher when it's for things like grid and renewables.

This must be countered by cadres of Green Yimbys

[grumbler]

Really?  Can you link me to some mainstream EU politicians that talk favorably about "degrowth?" "Cause that sounds an awful lot like bullshit that you just made up.

The European Parliament's hosted two conferences on "beyond growth" and "post-growth" in the last few years which are primarily conferences of people interested in degrowth (they're promoted on degrowth.info). Those conferences have been sponsored and attended by politicians from five of the European political familes (basically from the centre-right EPP to the hard-left). The aim is to promote and normalise conversations about de-growth.

I think they're mainly organised by Philippe Lamberts who's a very impressive Green MEP (I know about him because he's very good on tech regulation) but they've had heavyweight European speakers such as von der Leyen and Margrethe Vestager. They're not necessarily supportive (though some are - particularly within the Green parties) but I think it's an idea that's taken seriously and engaged with in Europe. FWIW I have actualy heard really good things about Jason Hickel's book on de-growth, though I've not read it - I doubt I'd agree with it (I come from the other extreme - that energy transition requires more of everything) but it sounds interesting so I'd probably enjoy it.

Neither "beyond growth" nor "post-growth" espouse "degrowth."  Both are concerned with sustainable growth and better distribution of the products of the economy. Degrowth is the deliberate winding-down of production based on the idea that people should be satisfied with a lower standard of material wealth.  I can't see any serious politician telling people that they should just stop wanting things (Donald Trump, in arguing this, is not a serious politician).

[Sheilbh]

Sure - and in the collateral for the conferenc degrowth is one of the pillars they're talking about for orienting "beyond growth" it is degrowth for the rich so the poor can catch up and we can respect/stay within the planet's limits). So from the briefing documents for the latest conference (addressed by five commissioners including VDL as well as MEPs):

Proponents of green and inclusive growth still see growth as a central policy objective but propose adjustments to make it more sustainable and inclusive. Examples of such policies include environmental taxes, decarbonisation policies, changes to the composition of production and consumption (e.g. shift to electric vehicles, recycling), implementing strategies aimed at poverty reduction, reducing inequalities and improving employment conditions. Attempts to move beyond growth are seen by its proponents as politically unviable, too embedded in society's understanding of what a successful economy is and closely linked to employment levels, business interests, government tax revenues and pension systems.

Supporters of degrowth propose an essentially opposite vision, arguing that growth in itself is a problem. They question the long-term sustainability of solutions proposed under green growth due to the limited regenerative capacities of the ecosystem and planetary boundaries. Moreover, the design of the economic system itself is seen as being based on social exploitation and inequalities. A steady-state or shrinking economy is therefore seen as a solution to the environmental limits and social problems. According to this view, deeper structural reform is needed. Possible policy options include stopping the extraction and consumption of fossil fuels, limits on advertising, a focus on community practices and shared use of goods, reduced working time and universal basic income.

The third group of ideas under the heading of post-growth (also called 'beyond growth' or 'a-growth', i.e. agnostic about growth) suggests moving away from the focus on growth. It does not necessarily mean abandoning growth as a policy objective, but nor does it mean relying on it. According to the previously quoted 2022 OECD report, it is about 'changing the composition and structure of economic activity to achieve the multiple goals of a more rounded vision of economic and social progress'. The argument behind it is that specific rates of growth are not automatically correlated with social benefit or environmental harm, because it all depends on what is growing or shrinking (i.e. how production and consumption is organised). Moreover, the observed low growth rates in many advanced economies 7 call for the rethinking, and subsequently a more fundamental transformation, of economic organisation to make employment, social security, public services, etc. less dependent on growth. The solutions offered by green/inclusive growth are seen as too incremental or acting only ex-post to remedy certain problems, while degrowth is seen as unrealistic. Therefore, supporters of this view believe that the economy should be designed in a way that achieves environmental and social goals, whether this will be accompanied by economic growth or not. Possible policies include decisively addressing environmental degradation and social inequalities, improving wellbeing and ensuring economic stability.

It's part of the conversation one of the keynote speakers was Giorgos Kallis an economist who has written a lot about degrowth (I think he's literally written a textbook on it). As I say I very much suspect the Commissioners are rejecting it but not all the MEPs are and it is part of the conversation in Europe that I just don't think it is in Europe - possibly partly because of PR/the presence of Green Parties?

[Syt]

Something cool for a change: https://www.reddit.com/r/astrophotography/comments/1q6ej2q/i_took_over_8_million_images_of_jupiter_in_one/

I took over 8 million images of Jupiter in one night to capture it's full rotation (and an Io transit)

This week I managed to capture a full rotation of Jupiter (just under 10hrs) in a single night. Including a transit of one of Jupiter's moons - Io.

In total I took 631 one minute videos of Jupiter at around 218fps, for a total of over 8 million images in one night, totalling 1.67TB of data.

I then took 468 of those which covered a full rotation and stacked each one, selecting the best 1500 frames from each. Wavelets in registax, and then I did some final touchup.

The 468 frames are what make up this final timelapse.

Telescope: Celestron C8 XLT
Camera: ZWO ASI-183MC Pro
Mount: Sky-Watcher EQM-35 Pro

Video at the link.

[Tamas]

Ok I definitely was wrong about Iran earlier:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/jan/08/iran-plunged-into-internet-blackout-as-protests-over-economy-spread-nationwide

[Josquius]

My reply vanished

[Josquius]

Ah seems a new thread was made and I missed it.
In the spirit of the thread. Anyone see the latest tennis news from Kenya?

An apparently random woman who seemingly doesn't know how to play tennis, can't even serve, gets into a pro tournament. The expected happens


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/articles/cx2gr00ndmyo

Honestly though it probably was an innocent error by the organisers it seems to have worked out as great publicity for them. There was a tennis tournament in Nairobi. Who knew.