US - Greenland Crisis Thread

[Tamas]

The Guardian reminded me the EU-US trade deal was about to be ratified but luckily it sounds like now it won't be. Pointless to try and get long term agreements with a rogue state.

[Legbiter]

I actually think this will unite the opposition to Trump even more. Europeans would have wavered on economic retaliation, but that's now here as Trump brought it into play.

If NATO survives the week it'll be a minor miracle. The White House has a regular media schedule. Trump's dysgenic baldie should regale us with screeching epithets in a day or so.

[The Minsky Moment]

You have to hand it to Trump though: nobody is talking about the illegally witheld Epstein files.

Not so, Ro Khanna is holding on to that issue like a terrier with a chew toy.

[Grey Fox]

I actually think this will unite the opposition to Trump even more. Europeans would have wavered on economic retaliation, but that's now here as Trump brought it into play.

If NATO survives the week it'll be a minor miracle. The White House has a regular media schedule. Trump's dysgenic baldie should regale us with screeching epithets in a day or so.

Not only that, chances are is that we're at war against the USA by the end of January.

[Admiral Yi]

Not the point we were discussing. Classic semantic derail.

It's the point Tamas chose to raise, to which i responded, and which you voiced your support.  Classic myth making.

[mongers]

I've been away at a military course for the last week. Naturally US imperialism was a discussion point and we all agreed that we would volunteer as a trip wire force in Greenland. US aggression needs to be stopped and the US needs to be treated as the enemy it has chosen to become.

 

Good for you Threviel and your fellow reservists.


Pity there's not something similar in the UK.

[Admiral Yi]

Is there a form of protest of current ICE methods displayed in Minessota and other places that you would find acceptable? Or is your core argument that these methods do not justify any protest?

Also what is the treshold at which voluntary members of an organisation can be held personally responsible for the actions they personally undertake while following guidelines and orders from that organisation (i.e. what's the treshold for personal insults becoming acceptable)?

I asked you a question which you did not answer but rather followed  up with more questions. We grant certain people the authority to ask questions without answering them in turn. The police, the court, counsels in a court case. Clergy, if you swing that way. You are not one of those parties.  Therefore answering your questions is not an obligation on my part. Rather I view it as a courtesy extended on a reciprocal basis. I ask my question, you answer, you get to ask yours.

[Admiral Yi]

They exercise police powers but do not follow their restrictions. Due process is systematically ignored. Lawlessness.

Example please.  Example please.

???
You've always seemed well-informed, I'm a bit perplexed by this demand.

There are multiple district court findings across the country detailing abuses by ICE and federal law enforcement. Including the one recently issued in Minnesota. I'd encourage you to read the fact section, as it describes daily experience on the ground for ordinary citizens in Minneapolis.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mnd.229758/gov.uscourts.mnd.229758.85.0_1.pdf

 That's aside from the hundreds of videos of ICE personnel assaulting people, smashing car windows on the slightest (or no) pretext.  Countless accounts of ICE agents taking people into custody and refusing to look at proof of citizenship.

Very informative Joan, thanks.

Jacob described ICE as Trump's Freikorps long before Minnesota. Do believe he was basing his judgement on cases such as the one you cited?  Do you believe there were other activities ICE engaged in that would justify the Freikorps accusation, i.e. render it not demonization?

[Zoupa]

Isn't your question answered by this part of Joan's post?

That's aside from the hundreds of videos of ICE personnel assaulting people, smashing car windows on the slightest (or no) pretext.  Countless accounts of ICE agents taking people into custody and refusing to look at proof of citizenship.

[Admiral Yi]

Isn't your question answered by this part of Joan's post?

That's aside from the hundreds of videos of ICE personnel assaulting people, smashing car windows on the slightest (or no) pretext.  Countless accounts of ICE agents taking people into custody and refusing to look at proof of citizenship.

If Joan were to assert that in his judgement the videos he references demonstrate clear examples of illegal activity it would very much support the Freikorps thesis.

The only wrinkle then would be which  came first, Freikorps or assault.

[Zoupa]

My read is the Miller wing of the administration very much wanted to create this kind of paramilitary organization when they started that crazy hiring spike. I'm not too knowledgeable about the historical Freikorps so I can't say how they compare, but this sort of militia is standard fare in nascent dictatorships.

[The Minsky Moment]

Jacob described ICE as Trump's Freikorps long before Minnesota. Do believe he was basing his judgement on cases such as the one you cited?  Do you believe there were other activities ICE engaged in that would justify the Freikorps accusation, i.e. render it not demonization?

ICE predates Trump.  It's never been my favorite agency, but with a federal agency you can usually count on some level of professionalism.  You could count on a minimum level of competence in personnel.  You could usually count on some degree of predictability in conduct, following developed standards and procedures and manuals.  This is what the Bannons of the world are talking about when they rant about the "deep state."  It's the operationalization of the rule of law. The people responsible for executing the law take steps to understand the law they are enforcing, and put procedures in place to do it in a reasonably predictable and transparent way.

Trump's first term didn't have much impact on this. The second term has been very different.  There have been purges at the senior civil service level of all agencies. Replacements chosen for personal and ideological loyalty. Expertise is suspect. SOPs and manuals are ignored as deep state BS and extraneous red tape.

ICE is an extreme manifestation of this phenomenon, because of the massive influx of personnel, poorly vetted and lightly trained and because they are charged with implementing a high personal priority for Trump.  The job by is nature is complex because ICE agents are responsible for enforcing both civil and criminal laws.  That distinction appears to have broken down completely, and intentionally so.

We don't have access to internal memoranda or orders yet (perhaps post 26?)  But the following is clear:
1) Enormous pressure is being placed on ICE to maximize the number of removals.
2) Racial and ethnic profiling of the crudest kind is the primary method of investigation. Here the Supreme Court has been a critical enabler.
3) The administration has made it crystal clear, from the very top (Trump, Vance, Noem, Miller) on down, that ICE agents do not need to concern themselves about adverse consequences from exceeding authority or even breaking the law.  They have "absolute immunity."

What we see on the streets of Minneapolis, Chicago, Portland elsewhere is the predictable result of bringing in masses of poorly trained recruits, arming them, pressuring them to achieve results at all costs, referring to the civilian population around them as "domestic terrorists" and "agitators", and telling them they can do whatever they want without negative consequences.  It's textbook behaviorism.

[viper37]

New leaked documents reveal US military sought classified info on Greenlandic infrastructure behind Denmark's back 

Danish article about US military shenanigans concerning Greenland.

It seems on one hand, some of the top Generals are pushing back against this, while some others are enabling it.

[Tamas]

Is there a form of protest of current ICE methods displayed in Minessota and other places that you would find acceptable? Or is your core argument that these methods do not justify any protest?

Also what is the treshold at which voluntary members of an organisation can be held personally responsible for the actions they personally undertake while following guidelines and orders from that organisation (i.e. what's the treshold for personal insults becoming acceptable)?

I asked you a question which you did not answer but rather followed  up with more questions. We grant certain people the authority to ask questions without answering them in turn. The police, the court, counsels in a court case. Clergy, if you swing that way. You are not one of those parties.  Therefore answering your questions is not an obligation on my part. Rather I view it as a courtesy extended on a reciprocal basis. I ask my question, you answer, you get to ask yours.

You haven't asked me any direct questions, the questions you asked have been answered by others.

[Admiral Yi]

A good point though. You take complaints about protesters at face value, but refuse to entertain the notion that ICE may be overstepping their legal boundaries. You may convince yourself thst you are impartial but you are far from it.

How do you  know how I take complaints about protesters? How do you know how I entertain the notion that ICE may be overstepping their boundaries? That's narrative. You make things up and get angry about them.

Yes I have. No they haven't.