US - Greenland Crisis Thread

[Bauer]

Some say it's not practical for the forces to have two different systems though.  Hard to know what to believe.

The costs are offset by the price difference of the aircraft.

But now they've accused us of double tapping the rock,  no Gripens until they take it back!

[Zoupa]

Poland operates a multi fighter type airforce. It's fine.

[grumbler]

Some say it's not practical for the forces to have two different systems though.  Hard to know what to believe.

The costs are offset by the price difference of the aircraft.

The F-35 is much cheaper, but if Canada buys the Gripen it will end up with an aerospace manufacturing capability they would not other wise have.

[viper37]

Some say it's not practical for the forces to have two different systems though.  Hard to know what to believe.

The costs are offset by the price difference of the aircraft.

The F-35 is much cheaper, but if Canada buys the Gripen it will end up with an aerospace manufacturing capability they would not other wise have.

It's at leat 31 billion$ to purchase 88 F-35 for now. It was 27 billion plus some extras over the years.
Maintenance costs seems to be ballooning in the US.
Link (GAO)


Saab sold 36 Grippen to Brazil for half the price per unit.  Difficult to compare because the specific deal would be different, I guess.  

I think this will be negotiated during NAFTA 3.0.

[Threviel]

Gripen and F-35 might cost about the same in purchase price, but Gripen is an order of magnitude cheaper to fly per hour. Something on the order of a tenth of the cost of the F-35.

For Canada the Gripen would make sense, it's built for arctic conditions and it's cheap and good enough. In any kind of expeditionary conflict they'll have more high end allied planes doing the initial dangerous flying and then they can just as well play bomb truck with a Gripen as with an F-35.

[The Brain]

A good thing is that Canada doesn't need great range to strike the attacker's homeland.

[Threviel]

I listened to a podcast interviewing a Cold War Viggen pilot. They normally flew around with the Soviets and generally felt that they had the upper hand and felt a bit superior. And then Nato had a big exercise with US planes stationed in Oslo and exercises close to the Swedish west coast, so naturally the Viggens were sent out. Apparently that wasn't quite as fun as going up against the Reds...

By which I mean is that nothing will matter when it comes to the US, no-one has any chance what so ever.

[The Brain]

OTOH the US can be expected to be much more sensitive to losses than Russia.

[crazy canuck]

I listened to a podcast interviewing a Cold War Viggen pilot. They normally flew around with the Soviets and generally felt that they had the upper hand and felt a bit superior. And then Nato had a big exercise with US planes stationed in Oslo and exercises close to the Swedish west coast, so naturally the Viggens were sent out. Apparently that wasn't quite as fun as going up against the Reds...

By which I mean is that nothing will matter when it comes to the US, no-one has any chance what so ever.

I wonder what would happen now under the leadership of the current administration and the people they have put in charge.  How deeply does the rot of leadership at the top affect military performance?

Probably not much, in the case of the US, but one purge away from Russian level competence?

[Sheilbh]

I feel that the Caracas attack shows an extraordinary level of operational competence in the US military.

Semi-relatedly I saw something about an Ukraine-NATO combat exercise and the Ukrainians absolutely wiped the floor with their NATO opponents (I think UK and Estonian officers), I think particularly with their use and understanding of drones in war. So I'm not even that sure with Russia around competence given they - with Ukraine - have real recent experience of what inter-state conflict is in the 21st century.

[Jacob]

Yeah I agree on both counts, though I'm not an expert.

The US military has a massive institutional weight and tradition behind it, as well as a history of actually fighting. I think it would take an extended period of degradation before political corruption would significantly undermine the professionalism of the sharp end. Not to mention that there's so much of it, that whatever inefficiency can mostly be overcome with sheer volume.

As for the Russians - yes, I think it'd be quite foolish to underestimate their experience in actual war-fighting.

[viper37]

I listened to a podcast interviewing a Cold War Viggen pilot. They normally flew around with the Soviets and generally felt that they had the upper hand and felt a bit superior. And then Nato had a big exercise with US planes stationed in Oslo and exercises close to the Swedish west coast, so naturally the Viggens were sent out. Apparently that wasn't quite as fun as going up against the Reds...

By which I mean is that nothing will matter when it comes to the US, no-one has any chance what so ever.

I wonder what would happen now under the leadership of the current administration and the people they have put in charge.  How deeply does the rot of leadership at the top affect military performance?

Probably not much, in the case of the US, but one purge away from Russian level competence?

The Finns wiped the floor with the Americans in a recent winter exercise.

They took the Venezuelans by surprise and the Russian equipment was out of order.  Years of neglect on their part, plus the purges after the anti-Chavez coup.

[Jacob]

On the Chavez thing, there's also the suggestion of inside support from the regime.

On that note, does the current leader of Venezuela rely on Cuban bodyguards?

[Threviel]

Just look at what a comparatively minnow like Israel did to Iran in one day. That's minuscule compared to what the US can do. No-one can stand up to the US in those kinds of operations, not one chance for anyone.

A lengthy occupation on the other hand, there they can be beaten, historically at least. The US used to care about laws of war and hearts and minds and shit. If they go full Russia and bust kill everyone no-one has a chance with that either.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I feel that the Caracas attack shows an extraordinary level of operational competence in the US military.

Semi-relatedly I saw something about an Ukraine-NATO combat exercise and the Ukrainians absolutely wiped the floor with their NATO opponents (I think UK and Estonian officers), I think particularly with their use and understanding of drones in war. So I'm not even that sure with Russia around competence given they - with Ukraine - have real recent experience of what inter-state conflict is in the 21st century.

saw it too, with vids. A stackwipe, basically