Iran War

[crazy canuck]

Except historically that particular organization has been scrupulously bi partisan. 

I do not know what caused the shift, but a shift has certainly occurred.

[Sheilbh]

I think it still was, no? Could be wrong but from what I've seen of the DSA sweep in New York a lot of them were campaigning against incumbent Dems taking that money.

[The Minsky Moment]

Bibi deliberately injected himself in American electoral politics in an obvious and undeniable way.  And he did so in a way that further alienated his regime from Jewish voters, who still strongly lean to the Democrats (70% in prior 2 elections, up slightly to 71% in 2024). The stability in those numbers is a little misleading, because while Trump has locked down the Orthodox vote, non-Orthodox Jews are breaking harder against him.

The message that is sent when an Israeli leader comes to the US and lambastes Obama in an unprecedented Congressional session and then essentially campaigns for Trump in multiple elections is that he views Israel's key base of support to be Christian evangelicals, not American Jews who were raised from the cradle on stories of 1967 and passing around envelopes for the State of Israel every high holidays.  That becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.  When American Jews see Israeli leaders praising Trump, praising Orban, attacking American leaders that many American Jews respect, and filling his cabinet with disturbing characters like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, it naturally increases a sense of alienation that impacts how they view the state.

Bibi would probably say he doesn't care - there are a lot more evangelicals then secular Jews in America.  True enough.  But evangelicals are far from being all powerful in the MAGA coalition. There are also the Tucker Carlsons and the Candace Owenses and Nick Fuenteses.  You can dismiss them as fringe, but they have substantial followings.  More importantly, they have a Normie face in power who happens to be (by far) the leading GOP candidate for President, and doesn't even bother to use the doggie version when whistling to the MAGA far right.

2028 could be the year Bibi's American political strategy definitively blows up in Israel's face, if the candidates end up being a hostile JD Vance on the one hand, and a Democrat that has little love for Likudnik hijinks, and feels safe enough to say some critical things about Israel without risking losing the majority of Jewish support.

[crazy canuck]

Yes, but that does not address my point JR.  the AIPAC has been targeting any American politician who is critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank or Lebanon. That was not Bibi's doing, that is a decision made by an American SuperPac to influence domestic politics.

At Sheilbh, yes and that is an indication of what is happening in the US. There once was a broad consensus within the United States regarding the two state solution.  All of which was supported by the AIPAC.  Those days are long gone, and the AIPAC is firmly on board with the current policies of the Israeli government.  Bipartisanship is an impossibility now.

[The Minsky Moment]

Yes, but that does not address my point JR.  the AIPAC has been targeting any American politician who is critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank or Lebanon. That was not Bibi's doing, that is a decision made by an American SuperPac to influence domestic politics.

I agree, a lot of the damage done to Israel's standing in the US has been self-inflicted.
The same goes for the ADL, whose mission shifted from combatting antisemitism (Elon getting a pass) to backing the messaging of the Israeli State.

[The Minsky Moment]

I'd also point out that the men and women who ran Mapai/Labour in the old days were hard people who did hard things.  They did not take it easy on the Palestinians by any stretch of the imagination.  What they did do was:

1) Have the common sense to put forward their Abba Ebans to the rest of the world, to provide the contrast between the appearance of Israeli cultured reasonability versus the terrorists and Baathist thugs that ran the show in the Arab world.  As opposed to the current government where cabinet ministers compete with each other to outdo each other's public lunacy.

2) Try to have a realistic understanding of their adversaries.

The fact that Bibi genuinely seems to have believed he could achieve genuine regime change in Iran with a hard shove seems astonishing except when you realize that he abolished the Intelligence ministry, and put a loyalist ideologue as the head of Shin Bet despite lack of intel experience.  One can only imagine what sorts of echo chamberish nonsense he is getting. As with Trump 2.0 in the US, there seems to have been a collapse in the capacity of Israel to properly govern itself.

[crazy canuck]

Yes, but that does not address my point JR.  the AIPAC has been targeting any American politician who is critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank or Lebanon. That was not Bibi's doing, that is a decision made by an American SuperPac to influence domestic politics.

I agree, a lot of the damage done to Israel's standing in the US has been self-inflicted.
The same goes for the ADL, whose mission shifted from combatting antisemitism (Elon getting a pass) to backing the messaging of the Israeli State.

Yep

[Razgovory]

I can't help but wonder where some of you folks would have stood on South African apartheid, seeing as how remarkably similar arguments are being raised here. 

I kinda wonder where many of you would have been with the Khmer Rouge, or Stalinism.  Actually, I don't.