Iran War

[DGuller]

GWB's speech writer coined an excellent phrase:  "soft bigotry of low expectations".  Raz, you're exactly right, which is why everyone is dancing around your point and looking for various differences between Israel and its Arab neighbors to find justification post-hoc for different standards being applied.  Somehow I don't think that mainstream hatred of Israel in countries like Spain has anything to do with US aid.

[Valmy]

GWB's speech writer coined an excellent phrase:  "soft bigotry of low expectations".  Raz, you're exactly right, which is why everyone is dancing around your point and looking for various differences between Israel and its Arab neighbors to find justification post-hoc for different standards being applied.  Somehow I don't think that mainstream hatred of Israel in countries like Spain has anything to do with US aid.

I think he is dancing around what I am saying and just refusing to acknowledge it. But I guess you fuckers know my heart better than me. I am a fucking bigot and fucking hate Muslims secretly and everything I say is dishonest.

For fuck sake, what chance does that give me when everything I am actualy saying is ignored and I get told what I actually think and get lectured to what you imagine I think. What kind of fucking bullshit is this? 

This is crap DGuller, I have always given you and Raz the benefit of the doubt that you mean you say. I don't know why I don't get the same courtesy.

[The Minsky Moment]

People do vociferously oppose aid to regimes like Saudi Arabia and they oppose selling military equipment to them.  It's not a very popular policy. But let's put it into perspective.   For FY 2024, Saudis received less than $4 million in aid.  It's non-existent.  Egypt $250 million.  the PA also 250 million (humanitarian).  Only the Jordanians get over $1 billion, and that's really for the benefit of Israel, to prop up a sort of friendly regime that keeps the Palestinians in exile tamped down.

Israel got over $6.8 billion, about twice as much as all the other Arab/ME countries combined.  They get privileged access to the best available US military equipment, and that equipment is then used by Ben-Gvir and his fellow cabinet members to carry out his punitive agenda and to support vicious repression against Palestinians in the Territories, in flagrant disregard of official US policy.  Whether intended or not, that sends a clear message to the world that the United States supports that agenda.

Israel receives this support at a time when USAID has been eliminated, programs like overseas tropical disease response have been eliminated, and there is a lot of avoidable suffering in destitute countries where $6.8 billions would make a huge difference.  The justification for the policy is that it serves US national interest, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to sustain the argument that supporting the Bibi cabinet is good for America.

You are free to register disagreement, but this is an entirely legitimate policy question.  You can't sidestep it by resorting to spurious ad hominem attacks of bigotry.

[Razgovory]

What I am dancing around now?  I don't think DGuller is saying you hate Muslims.  What I am pointing out is different standards for different people.

[Razgovory]

People do vociferously oppose aid to regimes like Saudi Arabia and they oppose selling military equipment to them.  It's not a very popular policy. But let's put it into perspective.  For FY 2024, Saudis received less than $4 million in aid.  It's non-existent.  Egypt $250 million.  the PA also 250 million (humanitarian).  Only the Jordanians get over $1 billion, and that's really for the benefit of Israel, to prop up a sort of friendly regime that keeps the Palestinians in exile tamped down.

Israel got over $6.8 billion, about twice as much as all the other Arab/ME countries combined.  They get privileged access to the best available US military equipment, and that equipment is then used by Ben-Gvir and his fellow cabinet members to carry out his punitive agenda and to support vicious repression against Palestinians in the Territories, in flagrant disregard of official US policy.  Whether intended or not, that sends a clear message to the world that the United States supports that agenda.

Israel receives this support at a time when USAID has been eliminated, programs like overseas tropical disease response have been eliminated, and there is a lot of avoidable suffering in destitute countries where $6.8 billions would make a huge difference.  The justification for the policy is that it serves US national interest, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to sustain the argument that supporting the Bibi cabinet is good for America.

You are free to register disagreement, but this is an entirely legitimate policy question.  You can't sidestep it by resorting to ad hominem attacks of bigotry.

Yeah, people started demanding an end to aid to Israel long before Trump cut aid to everyone else.  There is no big ground swell demanding that we cut off Saudi Arabia specifically (foreign aid is not popular for anyone), nor is there major movement to destroy Saudi Arabia and put it under the rule of some other group of people.  Why should only Israel be singled out for this?

And again, why should non-Americans hold this double standard?  I specified the Western world holds a double standard.

[crazy canuck]

What I am dancing around now?  I don't think DGuller is saying you hate Muslims.  What I am pointing out is different standards for different people.

Yes, and you are dancing around the fact that Israel is held to a very different standard both in terms of the support it is given and the atrocities it is permitted to carry out by the United States.

[Razgovory]

What I am dancing around now?  I don't think DGuller is saying you hate Muslims.  What I am pointing out is different standards for different people.

Yes, and you are dancing around the fact that Israel is held to a very different standard both in terms of the support it is given and the atrocities it is permitted to carry out by the United States.

Well, no.  We let the Saudis starve 80k children to death (you guys helped!) and didn't bat an eye.  But I thought you were Canadian, not American.  Why do you hold these  people to different standards?  You don't send money to Israel or help them militarily.

[The Minsky Moment]

The most glaring double standard I see is the US government turning a blind eye towards Israeli conduct in the WB, which is in flagrant violation of US policy and basic human rights.

[Sheilbh]

GWB's speech writer coined an excellent phrase:  "soft bigotry of low expectations".  Raz, you're exactly right, which is why everyone is dancing around your point and looking for various differences between Israel and its Arab neighbors to find justification post-hoc for different standards being applied.  Somehow I don't think that mainstream hatred of Israel in countries like Spain has anything to do with US aid.

But surely the double standard cuts both ways. To the extent American aid is an expression of deeply held American values then I'd take your point - but the electrocuted bollocks of legions of Latin American poets suggest that might not alwyas be the case. The reason there is a double standard is because it exists in the purposes of American aid.

The Egyptians and the Saudis (primarily) are strategically important allies who get aid because they are strategically useful. The US has had an energy relationship with Saudi dating back to the thirties (interestingly partly brokered by Kim Philby's father, St John Philby who may even, astonishingly, be even more of a wrong'un) - and the relationship with Egypt for decades is one in which Suez really matters. Both also provide incredibly important intelligence in relation to violent Islamist terrorist groups. They provide capacities for the US to project power to further advance its interests in the region. Same goes for most of the Gulf States - I'm no fan of the Qataris but part of the reason they were hosting Hamas was in order to help provide backchannels for Israel and to allow payments to be made from Israel and the US in ways that didn't breach sanction regimes. And they end up being the only state bombed by both Israel and Iran for it. Everyone low-key hates Qatar but finds them useful. I don't think any of those relationships have ever been based on "values" but on a quid pro quo and when those countries push strategic agendas that do not align with the US (such as Saudi in Yemen, or Saudi's confrontation with Iran) sensible American administrations have limited their involvement.

I agree with JR's point on the values point and I think aid to Israel has been more based on values and empathy than a quid-pro-quo on strategic utility. That is why a collapse in support or identification with Israel on the basis of values and empathy (which we have seen in opinion polling of all types of Americans, including American Jews in recent years) is really, really bad for Israel in a way that it isn't for Egypt or Saudi. That was never the deal for them - but if they stopped being strategically useful then I'm pretty sure US aid would dry up very rapidly. This is part of the disaster of Netanyahu's strategy which first of all got really involved in playing American domsestic politics in such a way that I think he has possibly permanently damaged the bipartisan consensus on Israel. He's then prosecuted wars in Gaza and Lebanon and presided over policies in the West Bank (with minister like Ben Gvir) that offend the values and empathy point for many, many Americans (and others). And finally he has convinced an American president to go along with his decades long idee fixe of attacking Iran and it has been a strategic disaster that is humiliating the US in the region. I think he's been a disaster for Israel because it's undermined the political basis of strong support for Israel, alienated many on the values issue (which was key for Israel, and not Saudi) and then turned out not to be a strategic advantage in the region but a liability.

FWIW off the top of my head I think Israel might be the only recipient of American aid that is in some way based on values or empathy v strategic utility - though there are other cases where there's overlap, such as Ukraine (until Trump stopped it due to a rather different analysis of American strategy to Rusia).

[crazy canuck]

The most glaring double standard I see is the US government turning a blind eye towards Israeli conduct in the WB, which is in flagrant violation of US policy and basic human rights.

Yep, that is the thing that stands out the most.

[Sophie Scholl]

I can't help but wonder where some of you folks would have stood on South African apartheid, seeing as how remarkably similar arguments are being raised here. 

[Richard Hakluyt]

Apartheid South Africa, Serbia 30-odd years back, Israel today....it is all the same ballpark as far as I am concerned.

[The Minsky Moment]

This is part of the disaster of Netanyahu's strategy which first of all got really involved in playing American domsestic politics in such a way that I think he has possibly permanently damaged the bipartisan consensus on Israel. He's then prosecuted wars in Gaza and Lebanon and presided over policies in the West Bank (with minister like Ben Gvir) that offend the values and empathy point for many, many Americans (and others). And finally he has convinced an American president to go along with his decades long idee fixe of attacking Iran and it has been a strategic disaster that is humiliating the US in the region. I think he's been a disaster for Israel because it's undermined the political basis of strong support for Israel, alienated many on the values issue (which was key for Israel, and not Saudi) and then turned out not to be a strategic advantage in the region but a liability.

That effectively covers the ground.

By openly participating in US domestic politics, Bibi exposed to Americans the reality that his cabinet is a far right ultra-nationalist junta, more akin to Orban (Bibi's "true friend") than say the Tories in Britian. Right away, that is going to trigger partisan hostility.

When you add an highly unpopular war, a strategic disaster for the US, and you have high level US officials making public statements to the effect that the US had to go in because Israel forced our hand.  That not only makes things worse for perceptions of Israel among the left and center, but also now on the GOP you have elements of the MAGA coalition breaking off and voicing extreme anti-Zionist positions.

[crazy canuck]

I am not sure Bibi shoulders all the blame for the way in which US internal politics have been engaged.

The US based interest group that funds politicians within the US has also been doing its part to weigh in on issues that support the current Israeli regime.

[Sheilbh]

I think from an Israeli perspective it is fair to blame Bibi. Superpacs etc provide a degree of plausible deniability (that's why they're useful) and can often help maintain some bipartisan relations and basically let you intervene in domestic American politics at an arm's length.

I think Bibi actively lobbying against a sitting President, going to address Congress against the executive branch's wishes, being on Fox and basically backing a party implicates the Israeli government and state in a different way.