Quo Vadis, Democrats?

[Grey Fox]

I guess but that's also the American exceptionalism I'm talking about. 200 years or so of seeing everything first thru the lense of capitalism.

[Razgovory]

I guess but that's also the American exceptionalism I'm talking about. 200 years or so of seeing everything first thru the lense of capitalism.

I think every country has some form of exceptionalism.  The Russians thought Russia was exceptional because it was ordained by God before the Revolution and after they thought Russia was exceptional for being the Avant Garde of the World Revolution.  

[Razgovory]

Re: Platner, I think one of the salient points is that he has apologized/tried to make amends for the thing causing the controversy. (though I do find the claim of prior complete ignorance a bit suspect)

Many of those criticizing him do nothing of the kind, even in the face of blatant hypocrisy.

If I have any reservations of him as a Senate candidate, is that I generally think US Senators should be somewhat experienced senior statesmen...not coming from a populist (of any leaning) surge.  That is what the House is for. 

Would you cut him this slack if he was a Republican?

[celedhring]

I think it's probably more just because it's "based" as an image - and I don't for one second buy his explanation that he didn't know what it meant given that background.

I don't know man. Don't overestimate the ignorance of young dudes, he might have just thought it looked badass.

I can buy him not knowing at the time. A badass-looking skull and all that. But he's had this thing on for decades, at some point it stops being plausible. So the three options are that either he's cool with nazi imagery, he's a liar, or he's dumb as a rock. And it's probably a bit of the three pots.

I wish the Dems had another candidate, but I agree that Collins needs to go.

EDIT: I see the other Dem primary candidate was the 78 year old term limited governor.  Quelle surprise.

[DGuller]

Re: Platner, I think one of the salient points is that he has apologized/tried to make amends for the thing causing the controversy. (though I do find the claim of prior complete ignorance a bit suspect)

Many of those criticizing him do nothing of the kind, even in the face of blatant hypocrisy.

If I have any reservations of him as a Senate candidate, is that I generally think US Senators should be somewhat experienced senior statesmen...not coming from a populist (of any leaning) surge.  That is what the House is for. 

Would you cut him this slack if he was a Republican?

The benefit of the doubt is a valuable commodity, you can only afford it on politicians that agree with you.

[The Minsky Moment]

Would you cut him this slack if he was a Republican?

No but Hegseth was confirmed anyways.

[Razgovory]

Re: Platner, I think one of the salient points is that he has apologized/tried to make amends for the thing causing the controversy. (though I do find the claim of prior complete ignorance a bit suspect)

Many of those criticizing him do nothing of the kind, even in the face of blatant hypocrisy.

If I have any reservations of him as a Senate candidate, is that I generally think US Senators should be somewhat experienced senior statesmen...not coming from a populist (of any leaning) surge.  That is what the House is for. 

Would you cut him this slack if he was a Republican?

The benefit of the doubt is a valuable commodity, you can only afford it on politicians that agree with you.

 


Perhaps it will stabilize politics in America.  Democrats who backed Platner will now have some common ground with Republicans who spent the last decade tying themselves into knots coming up with excuses for Trump.

[Valmy]

I can buy him not knowing at the time. A badass-looking skull and all that. But he's had this thing on for decades, at some point it stops being plausible. So the three options are that either he's cool with nazi imagery, he's a liar, or he's dumb as a rock. And it's probably a bit of the three pots.

I wish the Dems had another candidate, but I agree that Collins needs to go.

EDIT: I see the other Dem primary candidate was the 78 year old term limited governor.  Quelle surprise.

I thought he got rid of it?

Anyway Maine is famous for being a weird state, a almost entirely rural Democrat leaning state. So them picking some oddball ex-military oyster guy who talks about the elites is something they are going to do.

I find the fact even international people have strong opinions on this guy wild. If he wins he is going to be the Junior Senator from Maine. Can you tell me the Senators from North Dakota? Delaware? Montana? It's crazy.

This is a small state with its own idiosyncrasies.

[Valmy]

Would you cut him this slack if he was a Republican?

Oh fuck yes. If he was a Republican in Texas I would be overjoyed to find a guy who talked like him. Actually sounded like he wasn't just an empty suited asshole who did nothing but repeated culture war talking points all day and actually was talking about shit that mattered. Frankly I would be shocked. I would be wondering why he was trying so hard when all he has to do is say "immigrants bad, trans people are evil" and win easily.

But that probably speaks to those low expectations you mentioned in another thread.

[Razgovory]

Would you cut him this slack if he was a Republican?

Oh fuck yes. If he was a Republican in Texas I would be overjoyed to find a guy who talked like him. Actually sounded like he wasn't just an empty suited asshole who did nothing but repeated culture war talking points all day and actually was talking about shit that mattered. Frankly I would be shocked. I would be wondering why he was trying so hard when all he has to do is say "immigrants bad, trans people are evil" and win easily.

But that probably speaks to those low expectations you mentioned in another thread.

No, Just the Nazi tattoo thing.  Would you cut a Republican slack who had a Nazi tattoo.

[Valmy]

No, Just the Nazi tattoo thing.  Would you cut him slack from a Republican who had a Nazi tattoo.

I think I would feel the exact same way about it.

First I have known way too many military guys. I kind of get it. They are kind of nuts when they are in the middle of their service.

Second I am a history nerd who knows about the Deaths Head. The Brunwickers who fought Napoleon weren't Nazis.

Third I am just not a cancel culture guy, I have spoken out against it numerous times on this board and I am not really into the whole pick apart somebody's past to find dirt. I am just way too forgiving for stupid shit people say. I tend to be more upset about the things they do. Him joining a mercenary unit was always more of a concerning thing for me.

I mean we have Elon Musk out there giving Nazi Salutes, and that isn't even in the top 10 reasons why I think Musk is bad. Because at the end of the day I think he was just being an edgelord dumbass.

[The Minsky Moment]

No, Just the Nazi tattoo thing.  Would you cut a Republican slack who had a Nazi tattoo.

This isn't a hypothetical; Hegseth proudly sports a tattoo of the slogan under which Christian crusaders slaughtered and burned alive thousands of Jews in a bloody path from Germany to Jerusalem.  Unlike Platner, Hegseth is well educated and studied history at Princeton and presumably understands the meaning and historical significance of those words.

Would I have cut him some slack if he had proffered some explanation about it?  We'll never know because he never bothered to offer an excuse and instead contemptuously brushed aside any questioning.  That's the MAGA way. Of course, it's also true that even without the tattoo, he was so grossly inappropriate for the office, that it wouldn't really have moved the needle.

[Razgovory]

No, Just the Nazi tattoo thing.  Would you cut a Republican slack who had a Nazi tattoo.

This isn't a hypothetical; Hegseth proudly sports a tattoo of the slogan under which Christian crusaders slaughtered and burned alive thousands of Jews in a bloody path from Germany to Jerusalem.  Unlike Platner, Hegseth is well educated and studied history at Princeton and presumably understands the meaning and historical significance of those words.

Would I have cut him some slack if he had proffered some explanation about it?  We'll never know because he never bothered to offer an excuse and instead contemptuously brushed aside any questioning.  That's the MAGA way. Of course, it's also true that even without the tattoo, he was so grossly inappropriate for the office, that it wouldn't really have moved the needle.

So you have answered my question:  No, we would not give Republican with a Nazi tattoo the benefit of the doubt.  It is a political calculation.  A rather cynical, and nasty one at that.

But I'm sorry, I'm not a supporter of Hegseth.  I'm not going to make excuses for why Whiskey Pete has the flag of Georgia tattoo on him.  So that Whataboutism isn't the best tack with me.  

[The Minsky Moment]

So you have answered my question:  No, we would not give Republican with a Nazi tattoo the benefit of the doubt. 

No I haven't answered your question.  Hegseth never apologized or gave an excuse.  He doubled down as MAGA always does.  So there is no doubt to give the benefit of.

As for Platner, I don't live in Maine, but if I did, I would NOT have voted for him in the primary. 

[Sheilbh]

I find the fact even international people have strong opinions on this guy wild. If he wins he is going to be the Junior Senator from Maine. Can you tell me the Senators from North Dakota? Delaware? Montana? It's crazy.

This is a small state with its own idiosyncrasies.

We live on America's internet. It's a problem

Not just this but all the thousands of think-pieces and tweets and everything else about what to learn from Zohran Mamdani ("have a very charismatic left-wing candidate, in one of the most left-wing city in the country and get his opponent to be a serial sex pest" - I'm just not sure there's much generalisable there as to how Labour wins back Caerphilly ). I totally agree. I do not think British people or Europeans or anyone else should know or have any opinions about American primaries, or Senators or mayors unless they're literally paid to Sadly that's not the world we live in with the internet - if it used to be the case that economically if America sneezed the world got a cold, that's now also true of cultural and political issues