Who do you think's going to win the US presidential election?

[celedhring]

Yeah, and from the outside looking in, Biden's industrial policy didn't look too bad, but these things take time to take root.

[Josquius]

I guess the thing is Trump really pressed the "who can honestly say they are better off under Biden than they were me?", which I'd imagine definitely holds true for the majority. Because the west's economy is in a constant decline which Covid, Ukraine, and Trump really sped up.
Definitely true Biden did a good job with recovery. The American economy is the envy of the world.
But in the land of the blind the one eyed man...doesn't give a shit about the blind and is just pissed he only has one eye?

[crazy canuck]

It a handy excuse for pollsters getting it wrong again. But it is becoming clear that the weighting was off again.

They just didn't see the historic bedrock of Democratic support shifting to Trump.  Workers.

The Dems are going to have to reflect on how they lost that core support.

The working class no longer sees their economic interests to be served by the Democrats, so they no longer feel they have to put up with the progressive (for DG: woke) stuff the party represents, can vote on cultural grounds.

There is no need to lean into something that you guys label as woke for the explanation.  That is as much as your axe To grind as it is, what you were projecting onto the working class.

I actually think, having been poor myself, that the working poor don't give two shits about your culture war.  They care a lot more about where they're going to get their next job. They're going to pay for the next meal and how they're going to put a roof over their family.

Adam talk a lot more about equality in terms of how we're going to make elite jobs equal for all who are highly educated. They have completely lost the thread that their reason for being is economic opportunity for the working class and to better their lives.

It's actually a conceit to think that the working poor have the economic ability to make the sort of trade-offs that you were talking about. Nobody who is poor is sitting there thinking, "I wonder if I should put up with a woke agenda a little bit longer".

[Josquius]

It a handy excuse for pollsters getting it wrong again. But it is becoming clear that the weighting was off again.

They just didn't see the historic bedrock of Democratic support shifting to Trump.  Workers.

The Dems are going to have to reflect on how they lost that core support.

The working class no longer sees their economic interests to be served by the Democrats, so they no longer feel they have to put up with the progressive (for DG: woke) stuff the party represents, can vote on cultural grounds.

There is no need to lean into something that you guys label as woke for the explanation.  That is as much as your axe To grind as it is, what you were projecting onto the working class.

I actually think, having been poor myself, that the working poor don't give two shits about your culture war.  They care a lot more about where they're going to get their next job. They're going to pay for the next meal and how they're going to put a roof over their family.

I disagree.
I'm working class, I'm still firmly in touch with many who remain pretty damn poor.

Worth considering is that many people believe in a zero sum world.
Somebody having less means there's more available for them to try and grab- uppity women, foreigners, queer folk, people with degrees, etc... are taking from the share that rightfully belongs to working class white guys.
In this twisted world view that folk like Trump are keen to cultivate culture war nonsense actively connects to improving their economic situation.

They've given up on the idea that the future might possibly become a better place. Adding more people just means the same amount has to stretch further, the pie can't grow.
So they grasp for a rose tinted past where everything was better and the pie was shared out more to their advantage.
Somebody else suffering means things get better for you.

[Tamas]

It a handy excuse for pollsters getting it wrong again. But it is becoming clear that the weighting was off again.

They just didn't see the historic bedrock of Democratic support shifting to Trump.  Workers.

The Dems are going to have to reflect on how they lost that core support.

The working class no longer sees their economic interests to be served by the Democrats, so they no longer feel they have to put up with the progressive (for DG: woke) stuff the party represents, can vote on cultural grounds.

There is no need to lean into something that you guys label as woke for the explanation.  That is as much as your axe To grind as it is, what you were projecting onto the working class.

I actually think, having been poor myself, that the working poor don't give two shits about your culture war.  They care a lot more about where they're going to get their next job. They're going to pay for the next meal and how they're going to put a roof over their family.

Adam talk a lot more about equality in terms of how we're going to make elite jobs equal for all who are highly educated. They have completely lost the thread that their reason for being is economic opportunity for the working class and to better their lives.

It's actually a conceit to think that the working poor have the economic ability to make the sort of trade-offs that you were talking about. Nobody who is poor is sitting there thinking, "I wonder if I should put up with a woke agenda a little bit longer".

I obviously can't talk about how the US is on the ground but the entire reality of Hungary is one big evidence against what you are saying. A lot of poor people have been in desperate situation because of the mismanagement of the economy since Covid and before. They are still a solid fortress and source of Fidesz votes. Because of war in Ukraine, because of migrants, because of transgender rights, because of Brussels forcing all those on them with Orban as their first and last line of defense.

They have been convinced to care about nothing else but culture war.

[Razgovory]

It a handy excuse for pollsters getting it wrong again. But it is becoming clear that the weighting was off again.

They just didn't see the historic bedrock of Democratic support shifting to Trump.  Workers.

The Dems are going to have to reflect on how they lost that core support.

The working class no longer sees their economic interests to be served by the Democrats, so they no longer feel they have to put up with the progressive (for DG: woke) stuff the party represents, can vote on cultural grounds.

There is no need to lean into something that you guys label as woke for the explanation.  That is as much as your axe To grind as it is, what you were projecting onto the working class.

I actually think, having been poor myself, that the working poor don't give two shits about your culture war.  They care a lot more about where they're going to get their next job. They're going to pay for the next meal and how they're going to put a roof over their family.

I disagree.
I'm working class, I'm still firmly in touch with many who remain pretty damn poor.

[Grey Fox]

I disagree.
I'm working class, I'm still firmly in touch with many who remain pretty damn poor.

No, you are not. University educated UX designers are not working class, especially not in the USA context.

[Tamas]

I disagree.
I'm working class, I'm still firmly in touch with many who remain pretty damn poor.

No, you are not. University educated UX designers are not working class, especially not in the USA context.

Just because you rise out of working class doesn't mean your friends and family all follow you out. You can still have regular contact with the working class.

[Barrister]

As I understand it class is a big part of identity in Britain, so while GF is 100% right that by any economic indicator JOs is hardly working class (let's not forget he studied abroad, and his Swiss wife/girlfriend), that's how he grew up identifying as so it makes a certain amount of sense that's how he seems himself.

[Grey Fox]

I disagree.
I'm working class, I'm still firmly in touch with many who remain pretty damn poor.

No, you are not. University educated UX designers are not working class, especially not in the USA context.

Just because you rise out of working class doesn't mean your friends and family all follow you out. You can still have regular contact with the working class.

True, I should have cropped his quote even more. 

[Josquius]

Your class doesn't change the second you seem to have things going well in life. Its largely your upbringing which determines your class.
If my career and everything stays on track my kids won't be working class (though hopefully they can keep the values) but I very much remain so.
The debate would come in when this theoretical succesful future me is approaching retirement and has known longer in comfort than poverty. That person identifying as working class will be a bit odd.

As I understand it class is a big part of identity in Britain, so while GF is 100% right that by any economic indicator JOs is hardly working class (let's not forget he studied abroad, and his Swiss wife/girlfriend), that's how he grew up identifying as so it makes a certain amount of sense that's how he seems himself.

Switzerland has poor people too you know. :p

[Barrister]

Your class doesn't change the second you seem to have things going well in life. Its largely your upbringing which determines your class.
If my career and everything stays on track my kids won't be working class (though hopefully they can keep the values) but I very much remain so.
The debate would come in when this theoretical succesful future me is approaching retirement and has known longer in comfort than poverty. That person identifying as working class will be a bit odd.

But that's a very British attitude.

North America it doesn't matter how you grew up - if you're doing well you're doing well.

As I understand it class is a big part of identity in Britain, so while GF is 100% right that by any economic indicator JOs is hardly working class (let's not forget he studied abroad, and his Swiss wife/girlfriend), that's how he grew up identifying as so it makes a certain amount of sense that's how he seems himself.

Switzerland has poor people too you know. :p

Could've fooled me - it's one of the most expensive places around. :p

[HVC]

Jeff Bezos: Middle Class Man^TM

[crazy canuck]

I obviously can't talk about how the US is on the ground but the entire reality of Hungary is one big evidence against what you are saying. A lot of poor people have been in desperate situation because of the mismanagement of the economy since Covid and before. They are still a solid fortress and source of Fidesz votes. Because of war in Ukraine, because of migrants, because of transgender rights, because of Brussels forcing all those on them with Orban as their first and last line of defense.

They have been convinced to care about nothing else but culture war.

That is a fair point, but isn't Hungary a separate case from the world's strongest liberal democratic country?

[Razgovory]

How long has Josq been affluent?  10 years?  20?  He's an out of touch white guy who wants to think of himself as poor because the poor are more moral than the rich.

Me, I'm solidly middle class.  While I live on social security and dwell in the cheapest apartment in town, 16 generations ago one of my ancestors owned a grocery store.  So, you know, I still keep to my roots.  That doesn't change the second you change your economic standing.