Housing policy megathread

[Josquius]

But we do have minimum wages yes?

Both wages and rents are vital to a prosperous society. The government should enact policies that keep wages high and rents low. To act like those things are only an interest to negotiating parties is ridiculous. I just don't think rent control is a good system of keeping rents low if it is at all possible to increase supply.

Which when it is introduced it generally isn't.
At least not at anything like the scale required.

As I've said a lot of people, left and right, when looking at housing make the huge mistake of assuming a home is a home.
The key factor is often overlooked that housing isnt just some commodity that when demand is high you can just make more of in your factory.
 It has a critical tie to land, which even as a whole is finite, when looking at land within a kilometre of a certain location it is even more so.

Hell. Even if we throw out all planning and conservation rules and start razing our cities to make gigantic tower blocks - even then some locations will clearly be better than others and you can't just keep building infinitely tall.
There's only so much you can improve transit to a particular point.

There's a vital need for the broader community as a whole to have key workers able to live within a reasonable commute or their workplace.
Beyond this too research suggests there's huge societal gains in low levels of segregation and making sure areas have a healthy mix of different socio economic groups.

I can't see many circumstances where there'll never be a case for having no rent controlled housing. There'll always be a need for it to some degree and the idea that if you just eliminate it then everything will be better... It's unfounded.

[garbon]

What a surprise that after pages of defending rent control, you think it will always be necessary.

[Admiral Yi]

But we do have minimum wages yes?

Both wages and rents are vital to a prosperous society. The government should enact policies that keep wages high and rents low. To act like those things are only an interest to negotiating parties is ridiculous. I just don't think rent control is a good system of keeping rents low if it is at all possible to increase supply.

The government has an interest in increasing the happiness of all its citizens.  When we pursue policies that make one group happier at the expense of another I think we need a justification.

[Tamas]

When will somebody think of us poor landlords? 

You should be reading The Telegraph.

[Josquius]

But we do have minimum wages yes?

Both wages and rents are vital to a prosperous society. The government should enact policies that keep wages high and rents low. To act like those things are only an interest to negotiating parties is ridiculous. I just don't think rent control is a good system of keeping rents low if it is at all possible to increase supply.

The government has an interest in increasing the happiness of all its citizens.  When we pursue policies that make one group happier at the expense of another I think we need a justification.

Quite an interesting topic of research that.

Kahneman famously found pretty strong evidence that extra money over $75k doesn't have much impact on happiness, meanwhile the closer you get to 0 the more every extra bit of cash increases happiness.

Its perfectly logical when you think about it.
When I was a student having an extra £1000 would have been a revelation. It would have made my life far more comfortable and stress free.
Now an extra £1000....well I'm not going to say no. But it'd probably just go into my savings and not really impact on my happiness at all.

But then further research found it was a lot more complex than that, Kahneman had originally regarded happiness as a binary. If you allow graded levels of happiness then for a majority of people more money does equal more happiness.

I do think however that society as a whole should value the happiness of a teacher and her family having somewhere to live and a basic OK life over some landlord being able to get a few fancy extra options in his new BMW.

[Admiral Yi]

But we do have minimum wages yes?

Both wages and rents are vital to a prosperous society. The government should enact policies that keep wages high and rents low. To act like those things are only an interest to negotiating parties is ridiculous. I just don't think rent control is a good system of keeping rents low if it is at all possible to increase supply.

The government has an interest in increasing the happiness of all its citizens.  When we pursue policies that make one group happier at the expense of another I think we need a justification.

Quite an interesting topic of research that.

Kahneman famously found pretty strong evidence that extra money over $75k doesn't have much impact on happiness, meanwhile the closer you get to 0 the more every extra bit of cash increases happiness.

Its perfectly logical when you think about it.
When I was a student having an extra £1000 would have been a revelation. It would have made my life far more comfortable and stress free.
Now an extra £1000....well I'm not going to say no. But it'd probably just go into my savings and not really impact on my happiness at all.

But then further research found it was a lot more complex than that, Kahneman had originally regarded happiness as a binary. If you allow graded levels of happiness then for a majority of people more money does equal more happiness.

I do think however that society as a whole should value the happiness of a teacher and her family having somewhere to live and a basic OK life over some landlord being able to get a few fancy extra options in his new BMW.

And I believe if you want the teacher to be happier you can cough up the money to make her so..

[Josquius]

And I believe if you want the teacher to be happier you can cough up the money to make her so..

In theory.
Again in practice its more complicated than that.
Paying teachers, nurses, etc... enough so that they can live in central London? Aye, I'm down with that. It sounds politically viable to some extent. Economically infeasible and doubtless to cause huge demands for wage increases nationally but.... Its not like we're talking literally impossible here.
But coffee shop workers and the like? They're needed in wealthy cities too. Paying them on a par with a banker is going to be a harder sell.
Having a ready supply of low income housing just seems the most financially logical solution.

[crazy canuck]

But we do have minimum wages yes?

Both wages and rents are vital to a prosperous society. The government should enact policies that keep wages high and rents low. To act like those things are only an interest to negotiating parties is ridiculous. I just don't think rent control is a good system of keeping rents low if it is at all possible to increase supply.

The government has an interest in increasing the happiness of all its citizens.  When we pursue policies that make one group happier at the expense of another I think we need a justification.

Quite an interesting topic of research that.

Kahneman famously found pretty strong evidence that extra money over $75k doesn't have much impact on happiness, meanwhile the closer you get to 0 the more every extra bit of cash increases happiness.

Its perfectly logical when you think about it.
When I was a student having an extra £1000 would have been a revelation. It would have made my life far more comfortable and stress free.
Now an extra £1000....well I'm not going to say no. But it'd probably just go into my savings and not really impact on my happiness at all.

But then further research found it was a lot more complex than that, Kahneman had originally regarded happiness as a binary. If you allow graded levels of happiness then for a majority of people more money does equal more happiness.

I do think however that society as a whole should value the happiness of a teacher and her family having somewhere to live and a basic OK life over some landlord being able to get a few fancy extra options in his new BMW.

And I believe if you want the teacher to be happier you can cough up the money to make her so..

You read Atlas Shrugged when you were young didn't you?

[crazy canuck]

An article in the New York Times about the housing crisis in Ireland, which is on point our discussion.  The article focusses on cork, which has very high housing costs and a lot of abandoned Housing Projects that never quite recovered from the 2008 crash.

A gifted article for your reading pleasure.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/06/opinion/ireland-housing-immigration.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Ik4.iXEs.cm9IjUskR0OF&smid=url-share

[Admiral Yi]

In theory.
Again in practice its more complicated than that.
Paying teachers, nurses, etc... enough so that they can live in central London? Aye, I'm down with that. It sounds politically viable to some extent. Economically infeasible and doubtless to cause huge demands for wage increases nationally but.... Its not like we're talking literally impossible here.
But coffee shop workers and the like? They're needed in wealthy cities too. Paying them on a par with a banker is going to be a harder sell.
Having a ready supply of low income housing just seems the most financially logical solution.

There is no theory, only practice.  Either you want to pay more in tax to increase the teacher's happiness and have enough votes to do so or you don't.

[Josquius]

In theory.
Again in practice its more complicated than that.
Paying teachers, nurses, etc... enough so that they can live in central London? Aye, I'm down with that. It sounds politically viable to some extent. Economically infeasible and doubtless to cause huge demands for wage increases nationally but.... Its not like we're talking literally impossible here.
But coffee shop workers and the like? They're needed in wealthy cities too. Paying them on a par with a banker is going to be a harder sell.
Having a ready supply of low income housing just seems the most financially logical solution.

There is no theory, only practice.  Either you want to pay more in tax to increase the teacher's happiness and have enough votes to do so or you don't.

Or you could just use your tax income to provide rent controlled social housing. A far more efficient and less messy way to solve the problem.

[Valmy]

An article in the New York Times about the housing crisis in Ireland, which is on point our discussion.  The article focusses on cork, which has very high housing costs and a lot of abandoned Housing Projects that never quite recovered from the 2008 crash.

A gifted article for your reading pleasure.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/06/opinion/ireland-housing-immigration.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Ik4.iXEs.cm9IjUskR0OF&smid=url-share

Ireland has certainly started having me question if economic growth actually makes things better for normal people. I am not saying it doesn't but a lot of things in that article remind me of similar issues in high growth parts of Texas.

But the role of the 2008 crisis I guess might still be a major driver. In my mind the economy recovered from thay around 2014 sometime but maybe that is still driving this housing and cost of living problem.

I mean if a major side effect of economic growth is normal people no longer being able to afford to live then we really need to reconsider how we manage our economies. I mean I presume it is still vastly preferable to a shrinking economy...

[Admiral Yi]

Or you could just use your tax income to provide rent controlled social housing. A far more efficient and less messy way to solve the problem.

Absolutely.

Though Milton Friedman argued that cash is always better.

[Valmy]

Or you could just use your tax income to provide rent controlled social housing. A far more efficient and less messy way to solve the problem.

Absolutely.

Though Milton Friedman argued that cash is always better.

UBI baby.

Though agreeing with Friedman gives me pause 

[Razgovory]

Yesterday I was scolded by my landlord (or at least the clerk at the front office), for failing to inform them in timely matter that the handyman had failed for the 5th time to fix leak in my closet.  So I'm not entirely oppose to hanging landlords.