Finland, Sweden + NATO

[Jacob]

Didn't mean to start a free speech sub-thread

Not intending this as a argument for or against, but simply to add a bit more context regarding the situation in Denmark.

1) Denmark sees itself as pretty strongly in favour of free speech - which is why we've had our own Mohammad-caricature controversies, for example. But Denmark is also a European centre for printing and selling books like Mein Kampf, as I understand it, due to its general commitment to free speech.

2) At the same time, there are a number of quirks. Until very recently it required special dispensation from the police to fly any flag except the Danish (and fellow Scandinavian) flag, for example. That was true until the supreme court found against that law in June this year (driven by a case of someone being prosecuted for flying an American flag).

3) Similarly, you're not allowed to burn any flag (except the Danish flag, as a method of proper disposal).

4) Denmark had an anti-blasphemy law on the books until 2017.

5) The new law criminalizes "inappropriate treatment of objects of significance to a faith, in public", more or less. This, it is argued, is a reintroduction of elements of the anti-blasephemy law (which was more wide ranging).

[Admiral Yi]

Which is a sensible thing to do.
Fanatics want to do something with the express purpose of just trying to cause instability in society and with zero innocent explanation... Yeah. They're a threat to peace. Lock them up.
As Sheilbh says it goes both ways. It can't just be Muslim hate preachers we don't let do their thing. The white far right are a much bigger issue.

The cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo had the non zero innocent explanation that Islam is a shit religion that makes people do shit things.

If it truly does go both ways should we pass laws that prohibit speech that makes the far right angry?

[Josquius]

I totally disagree on the ultimate aim of Islamist extremists. There may be an element of hoping to provoke a response that demonstrates their point. I don't think that's their ultimate goal, on an ideological goal I think their ultimate goal is an extremist Islamist state (on a personal level for both I suspect it's more almost existential/sense of action) not the knock-on effects within x countries politics. I generally think if people are willing to kill or die for a cause they're normally intending to do it for the cause, not some other more tactical reason.

They're on record saying as much themselves.

It's not their ultimate ultimate aim of course. This would be the apocalyptic war of civilizations where all Muslims unite against the infidels and establish a glorious caliphate.

But pushing non Muslims into being islamophobic shit heads is a key step towards accomplishing this.

It's always a funny irony that the white and Islamic far right so claim to hate each other yet at the same time rely on each other as a source of their strength and despite what they say on the surface, clearly really love it when the other side does something horrid.

Which is a sensible thing to do.
Fanatics want to do something with the express purpose of just trying to cause instability in society and with zero innocent explanation... Yeah. They're a threat to peace. Lock them up.
As Sheilbh says it goes both ways. It can't just be Muslim hate preachers we don't let do their thing. The white far right are a much bigger issue.

The cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo had the non zero innocent explanation that Islam is a shit religion that makes people do shit things.

If it truly does go both ways should we pass laws that prohibit speech that makes the far right angry?

Charlie Hebdo is a satirical paper. Satirising things is their whole reason for exitsance. They weren't just going "hurr durr. Look me burn koran. Muslim be angry now"

As to making the white far right (don't forget Islamic extremists are far right too) angry, a better analogy would be something that enrages white folk at large and encourages them towards the far right. Which yes. That kind of thing is also be covered under hate speech laws, though a lot more leeway is usually given with it. Many times the media and mainstream politicians have  flirted with this shit.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Which is a sensible thing to do.
Fanatics want to do something with the express purpose of just trying to cause instability in society and with zero innocent explanation... Yeah. They're a threat to peace. Lock them up.
As Sheilbh says it goes both ways. It can't just be Muslim hate preachers we don't let do their thing. The white far right are a much bigger issue.

The cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo had the non zero innocent explanation that Islam is a shit religion that makes people do shit things.

If it truly does go both ways should we pass laws that prohibit speech that makes the far right angry?

That's not how things work. Only things that are to the advantage of islam are allowed.

[Josquius]

Which is a sensible thing to do.
Fanatics want to do something with the express purpose of just trying to cause instability in society and with zero innocent explanation... Yeah. They're a threat to peace. Lock them up.
As Sheilbh says it goes both ways. It can't just be Muslim hate preachers we don't let do their thing. The white far right are a much bigger issue.

The cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo had the non zero innocent explanation that Islam is a shit religion that makes people do shit things.

If it truly does go both ways should we pass laws that prohibit speech that makes the far right angry?

That's not how things work. Only things that are to the advantage of islam are allowed.

Except that's demonstrably not the case despite your attempt to manufacture a victim complex.

[Admiral Yi]

Charlie Hebdo is a satirical paper. Satirising things is their whole reason for exitsance. They weren't just going "hurr durr. Look me burn koran. Muslim be angry now"

As to making the white far right (don't forget Islamic extremists are far right too) angry, a better analogy would be something that enrages white folk at large and encourages them towards the far right. Which yes. That kind of thing is also be covered under hate speech laws, though a lot more leeway is usually given with it. Many times the media and mainstream politicians have  flirted with this shit.

So the important distinction in your mind between cartoons which anger Muslims and burning the Koran is the aesthetics?  If Koran burners stopped saying hurr durr so much then it would be an acceptable action?

I can think of a number of things which plausibly made white Trumpists more militant and violent: stealing the election(c), trans athletes, climate change, etc.  Should those things be banned as hate speech too?

[Josquius]

Charlie Hebdo is a satirical paper. Satirising things is their whole reason for exitsance. They weren't just going "hurr durr. Look me burn koran. Muslim be angry now"

As to making the white far right (don't forget Islamic extremists are far right too) angry, a better analogy would be something that enrages white folk at large and encourages them towards the far right. Which yes. That kind of thing is also be covered under hate speech laws, though a lot more leeway is usually given with it. Many times the media and mainstream politicians have  flirted with this shit.

So the important distinction in your mind between cartoons which anger Muslims and burning the Koran is the aesthetics?  If Koran burners stopped saying hurr durr so much then it would be an acceptable action?

I can think of a number of things which plausibly made white Trumpists more militant and violent: stealing the election(c), trans athletes, climate change, etc.  Should those things be banned as hate speech too?

Aesthetics? Eh? How do you get that?

No. Its motivation which matters. Both in the action itself and in the past record of the one behind it.
Charlie Hebdo is known as an all purpose shit stirrer. It has a long history making fun of anything and everything. There's no specific hate targeted at muslims in their mocking Muhammed.
On the other hand if a far right group whose reason for existence is destroy all muslims tries to do the same thing...then their motives are rather more questionable. Rather than just saying muslims aren't immune to their general purpose mocking they'd be specifically just trying to attack muslims out of hate.

[Admiral Yi]

Aesthetics? Eh? How do you get that?

No. Its motivation which matters. Both in the action itself and in the past record of the one behind it.
Charlie Hebdo is known as an all purpose shit stirrer. It has a long history making fun of anything and everything. There's no specific hate targeted at muslims in their mocking Muhammed.
On the other hand if a far right group whose reason for existence is destroy all muslims tries to do the same thing...then their motives are rather more questionable. Rather than just saying muslims aren't immune to their general purpose mocking they'd be specifically just trying to attack muslims out of hate.

Destroy as in kill?  You have determined that every person who burns a Koran yearns to kill all Muslims?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Which is a sensible thing to do.
Fanatics want to do something with the express purpose of just trying to cause instability in society and with zero innocent explanation... Yeah. They're a threat to peace. Lock them up.
As Sheilbh says it goes both ways. It can't just be Muslim hate preachers we don't let do their thing. The white far right are a much bigger issue.

The cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo had the non zero innocent explanation that Islam is a shit religion that makes people do shit things.

If it truly does go both ways should we pass laws that prohibit speech that makes the far right angry?

That's not how things work. Only things that are to the advantage of islam are allowed.

Except that's demonstrably not the case despite your attempt to manufacture a victim complex.

Not yet, despite your inability to accept that the ideology islam is anything but progressive

[Josquius]

Destroy as in kill?  You have determined that every person who burns a Koran yearns to kill all Muslims?

Define kill.
They personally plan to kill as many as possible in a public manner? They'd love it if they all vanished in a puff of smoke? They have a more long term outlook on "getting rid of them" in a PR friendly  but still permanent way?
You're the only one to start talking about killing people here.
Undoubtedly Muslims simply dropping the religion isn't much of a consideration for many of these people. The venn with general purpose racists is tight.  And then there's a lot of ways to ethnically cleanse without getting your hands too dirty.

Not yet, despite your inability to accept that the ideology islam is anything but progressive

Thats a complete non-sequitur.
The issue isn't that others think Islam is somehow progressive. Its religion. Of course it errs towards conservative.
However it simply isn't much of a threat. In western countries muslims are minority, many of them very secular, and the delusions about a take over are just silly.
As to the middle east...well its time at the centre of the world's attention is drawing to a close. Less a potential future threat and more a potential future humanitarian issue.

[Admiral Yi]

Define kill.
They personally plan to kill as many as possible in a public manner? They'd love it if they all vanished in a puff of smoke? They have a more long term outlook on "getting rid of them" in a PR friendly  but still permanent way?
You're the only one to start talking about killing people here.
Undoubtedly Muslims simply dropping the religion isn't much of a consideration for many of these people. The venn with general purpose racists is tight.  And then there's a lot of ways to ethnically cleanse without getting your hands too dirty.

Kill usually means to take actions that result in the end of life.

I was responding to your comment about destroying Muslims.  That can mean anything and it can mean nothing.

[viper37]

Sweden has officially joined the Federation.
https://trekmovie.com/2024/03/30/nato-explains-why-the-theme-for-star-trek-first-contact-was-played-at-swedens-induction-ceremony/