New Paradox Tinto Game? EU5?

[Syt]

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-talks-1-february-28th-2024.1625360/

Tinto Talks #1 - February 28th 2024

Hello everyone and welcome to .. yeah, what is this really?

Is this a game called "Tinto Talks?" No.. not really.

First of all Tinto stands for "Paradox Tinto", the studio which we founded in Sitges in 2020, with a few people moving down with me from PDS to Spain. We have now grown to be almost 30 people. Now, that is out of the way, what about the "Talks" part? Well...

A long time ago, we started talking about a game as soon as we started working on it. Back in the long almost forgotten past we used to make games in about 8-9 months. I remember us announcing Vicky2 with just 2 mockup screenshots, and half a page of ideas.

This changed a bit over time, with first the rule of not announcing a game until it passed its alpha milestone, in case it would be canceled... as happened with Runemaster. And then when projects started going from an 18 month development cycle with games like EU4 to many years like our more recent games, the time from announcement to release became much closer to the release of the game.

Why does this matter?

Well, from a development perspective communicating with the players is extremely beneficial, as it provides us with feedback. But if it's so late in the development process that you can not adapt to the feedback, then a development diary is "just" a marketing tool. I think games like Imperator might have looked different if we had involved the community earlier and listened to the feedback.

If we look back at HoI4, this was from the first time we talked about Air Warfare, about 10 years ago, and it has not much in common with the release version..

However, talking about a game for a long long time is not great for building hype either, and to be able to make proper huge announcements is an important part as well.

So what is this then? Well, we call this sub-forum "Tinto Talks". We will be talking about design aspects of the game we are working on. We will not tell you which game it is, nor be able to tell you when it will be announced, nor when it will be released.

We will be talking with you here, almost every week, because we need your input to be able to shape this game into a masterpiece.

Without you, and your input, that will not be possible.

So what about Project Caesar then?

Project Caesar? Yeah.. At PDS, which Tinto is a "child" of, we tend to use roman emperor/leader names for our games. Augustus was Stellaris, Titus was CK3, Sulla was Imperator, Nero was Runemaster, Caligula was V3 etc.. We even named our internal "empty project for clausewitz & jomini", that we base every new game on Marius.

In Q2 2020, I started writing code on a new game, prototyping new systems that I wanted to try out. Adapting the lessons learned from what had worked well, and what had not worked well. Plus, recruiting for a completely new studio in Paradox Tinto, training people on how to make these types of games, while also making some expansions for EU4.

Today though, even though we are a fair bit away from announcing our new game, we want to start talking weekly about the things we have worked on, to get your feedback on it, and adapt some of it to become even better.

However, we'll start with the vision, which is not really something you do change at this stage.

Believable World

You should be able to play the game and feel like you are in a world that makes sense, and feels rich and realistic. While not making the gaming less accessible, features should be believable and plausible, and avoid abstraction unless necessary.

Setting Immersion

Our games thrive on player imagination and "what if" scenarios. We ensure both a high degree of faithfulness to the setting which will give a "special feel" to the game. We will strive to give this game the most in-depth feeling of flavor possible.

Replayability

There should be many ways to play different starts and reasons to replay them. Different mechanics in different parts of the world create a unique experience depending on what you choose to play. With a deep and complex game, there should be so many choices and paths that the player should feel they can always come back to get a new story with the same start.

Yeah, sounds ambitious right?

Which games do YOU think represent these pillars well?

Cheers, and next week, we'll talk about the most important things in the world.. Besides family, beer, friends, and the Great Lord of the Dark... MAPS!

[Zanza]

I hope it is EU5.

[Zanza]

Today, Johan wrote about the map. It's global. Obviously not Victoria, so that leaves us with the EU time period or the 20th century, aka HoI. Let's see.

[garbon]

How conversations are going and his level of participation, feels like it'd be PR blunder if not EU5.

[Habbaku]

I hope it is EU5.

Don't give me hope...

[Zanza]

Actually there is transoceanic travel, but it relies on currents and winds. So not 20th century. Must be EU5.

I'll buy it. 

[crazy canuck]

I'm not sure what they could do with EU that would make me want to buy a version after all the DLC's I've bought for the current version.

[Josquius]

Actually there is transoceanic travel, but it relies on currents and winds. So not 20th century. Must be EU5.

I'll buy it. 

That sounds potentially interesting. Though I expect its nothing more than a mild flavour thing in practice.

Still. Nice to imagine there could be an EU5 which breaks the mould and isn't just like the 3 to 4 step up.

[Josephus]

I'm not sure what they could do with EU that would make me want to buy a version after all the DLC's I've bought for the current version.

Yeah. I'm if two minds. I still play EU4 and have most of the DLCs. But it IS feeling old. That said EU5 will have to be overwhelming from the start. They've set a very high bar

[Tamas]

I'm not sure what they could do with EU that would make me want to buy a version after all the DLC's I've bought for the current version.

Yeah. I'm if two minds. I still play EU4 and have most of the DLCs. But it IS feeling old. That said EU5 will have to be overwhelming from the start. They've set a very high bar

Exactly my feelings.

Ibtemeber EU4 helped my new flatmate realise very fast the level of nerd he moved in with.

It came out about two weeks after I moved to England and resulted in me only leaving my bedroom for food for a couple of weeks especially since the room was an en suite. 

[Josquius]

I'm not sure what they could do with EU that would make me want to buy a version after all the DLC's I've bought for the current version.

Yeah. I'm if two minds. I still play EU4 and have most of the DLCs. But it IS feeling old. That said EU5 will have to be overwhelming from the start. They've set a very high bar

Exactly my feelings.

Ibtemeber EU4 helped my new flatmate realise very fast the level of nerd he moved in with.

It came out about two weeks after I moved to England and resulted in me only leaving my bedroom for food for a couple of weeks especially since the room was an en suite. 

And by en suite you mean you had enough cola bottles? :p


I can't remember the last time I played eu4.
Honestly tend to actively avoid playing paradox games given how much of a time sink they are with a very unsatisfactory end.
I know Vic 3 is right up my alley but haven't even bought it yet.

[Tamas]

Yeah it's weird I have been unable to stick with EU4 lately. Objectively it is a great historical strategy game even if it has some silliness to enable people world conquest with Vietnam and that sort of stuff. I just... I don't know. Then again I was playing it on and off for 10 years, one is bound to burn out eventually.

Victoria 3 is suffering under its own weight. They partially succumbed to the "OMG NO MILITARY UNITS" crowd and added detail to the military which in my opinion is just now generating different sorts of problems and I think if I wanted to minmax my military stuff I'd be spending almost HOI-level time on it, which is ridiculous.

The economic and political models are fascinating though (bugs and inaccuracies notwithstanding) there there are two major issues: one is diplomacy being completely detached from those two but the upcoming expansion is bound to at least partially fix that, as I understand. The other, bigger one, is that the game's performance is atrocious. They just release a patch that was supposed to improve just that and early reports suggests it has made it worse.

My main gripe with the slowness is that my main enjoyment with the game is seeing different political and economical situations develop in my country. Any sort of bugs/inaccuracies I could be very forgiving with if I could run through a game fairly quickly and get on with a new game seeing an other alternate history unfold with interest groups rising and falling etc. But it is so. Slow.

Still, there's a great game in there and I have high hopes for the major DLC in May.

[Zanza]

I am still playing EU4, have all but a few of the graphics DLCs. It is a great game, but it has significant areas which need redesign.

Trade is too static with the fixed one-way flow from node to node. Colonization and exploration don't work very well as both are too easy and only being controlled by some very basic mechanics. Virtually everything being influenced by somewhat random monarch mana in three categories. No concept for limited colonial wars. Etc.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, if they had a dynamic trade system and a better exploration system, that would suck me into buying 5.

But the world trade system in Vic III does not give me a great deal of hope.

[Zanza]

But the world trade system in Vic III does not give me a great deal of hope.

On military there was already a clear statement that the new game would not follow the Victoria design. Let's see about the trade system. Unlikely to just be the same.