Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

It is a very ineffective means of ethnic cleansing, not to mention expensive. 

[Barrister]

OK Iormlund, viper failed the test.  Your turn.  What's your magic number?

In my extremely unpopular opinion, the IDF is generally doing a good job when it comes to these choices.

Sorry Iorm, I thought you were coming at this from the other side.

I don't know if the IDF is doing a good job or not.  I just don't have the information available that they do.

I do think though they're at least trying to minimize civilian casualties.

Whether they're trying hard enough, or should draw the line somewhere else, I just don't know.

[Iormlund]

OK Iormlund, viper failed the test.  Your turn.  What's your magic number?

In my extremely unpopular opinion, the IDF is generally doing a good job when it comes to these choices.

Sorry Iorm, I thought you were coming at this from the other side.

I don't know if the IDF is doing a good job or not.  I just don't have the information available that they do.

I do think though they're at least trying to minimize civilian casualties.

Whether they're trying hard enough, or should draw the line somewhere else, I just don't know.

Obviously I have incomplete information as well. But the pattern I can see from the past year is that big-casualty events are usually assassinations of higher ups.

I think they started testing the waters when they hit that ambulance by Al Shifa ... which later turned out to be a tunnel entrance to the compound below.
Similarly, Nasrallah was brought down with the (IIRC) six residential buildings above his bunker.

Yet when time is not a significant factor they tend to knock the roof. They've blown up the rooms where commanders were sleeping, instead of bringing the whole building down, when they could.

Also, the claim that they are bombing indiscriminately does not hold up to statistical scrutiny.
Quick napkin math shows that bombing Gaza at random would've actually killed much, much more people.

[grumbler]

Yet when time is not a significant factor they tend to knock the roof. They've blown up the rooms where commanders were sleeping, instead of bringing the whole building down, when they could.

Time is a factor not being expressed by the hypothetical.  The number of civilian casualties that would be deemed acceptable depends on the nature of the threat and the capacity of the military to choose the moment for the strike.  Bombing a school to knock out a stored machine gun launcher is a lot different than bombing a school with a machine gun firing on IDF soldiers.  Killing an HVT driving through a market square can't be justified if the vehicle is headed into more open terrain.

[The Minsky Moment]

A problem Israel has and will continue to have is that whatever justifications the IDF provides, Israel has a massive credibility problem as long as its cabinet includes open racists that cheerlead ethnic cleansing and the government is led by a corrupt liar with a powerful vested interest in spreading the conflict and delaying its end.

[viper37]

The system is designed to kill as many Palestinian targets as possible, no matter the civilian count.

If that's what you think that kind of just ends any conversation.

It's what American intelligence believes, it's what many other countries seems to believe, it's what some Israeli generals believe.

[The Minsky Moment]

As if on cue Bibi fires his defense minister, an experienced military man and as close to a voice of reason as exists in Likud.  Replacement is an annexationist political flunky with no military expertise.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

A problem Israel has and will continue to have is that whatever justifications the IDF provides, Israel has a massive credibility problem as long as its cabinet includes open racists that cheerlead ethnic cleansing and the government is led by a corrupt liar with a powerful vested interest in spreading the conflict and delaying its end.

True, but on the other hand: half the world's countries are led by such types and it doesn't seem to harm them much...

[Tamas]

On the flip side of the election result, I'll be laughing my ass off when Ivanka watches a news report on Gaza after which Trump declares an arms embargo on Israel.

[chipwich]

A problem Israel has and will continue to have is that whatever justifications the IDF provides, Israel has a massive credibility problem as long as its cabinet includes open racists that cheerlead ethnic cleansing and the government is led by a corrupt liar with a powerful vested interest in spreading the conflict and delaying its end.

Every country that has any sort of active military conflict has a "credibility problem" including the United States and Ukraine. A credibility problem obviously emerges when a government is tested by war.

[mongers]

I can see this finishing like the end of the Tamil Tigers, on beaches packed with large numbers of trapped civilians, though possibly worse still.

Of course Hamas could start following the rules of war and removing themselves from civilian areas and conduct an 'open fight' but that would just bring about their earlier extinction and many fewer Israeli military deaths.

 

[Savonarola]

I can see this finishing like the end of the Tamil Tigers, on beaches packed with large numbers of trapped civilians, though possibly worse still.

Of course Hamas could start following the rules of war and removing themselves from civilian areas and conduct an 'open fight' but that would just bring about their earlier extinction and many fewer Israeli military deaths.

 

It's good to see you back, Mongers.

[mongers]

I can see this finishing like the end of the Tamil Tigers, on beaches packed with large numbers of trapped civilians, though possibly worse still.

Of course Hamas could start following the rules of war and removing themselves from civilian areas and conduct an 'open fight' but that would just bring about their earlier extinction and many fewer Israeli military deaths.

 

It's good to see you back, Mongers.

Thanks Sav, I hope you and family are doing well.

[Grey Fox]

Hi, Mgrs. Happy to know you still live.

[HVC]

Israel invades France.