Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Josquius]

Yep.
Israel thinks nothing of Palestinian civilian deaths. The only reason this one is a scandal is they killed citizens of friendly countries. They do the same thing basically every day.
And their only defence is "But what about Hamas".

[OttoVonBismarck]

Israel is giving as much deference to civilian casualties as any country does fighting a major war. It gives more consideration than countries like Russia.

[grumbler]

Israel is giving as much deference to civilian casualties as any country does fighting a major war. It gives more consideration than countries like Russia.

That is objectively false.  Despite employing far greater firepower in Ukraine, Russia has killed just less than 11,000 civilians in 25 months.  Israel has killed over 30,000 in six months.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Those numbers are fake news. And I think you know that.

1. We are uncritically repeating Hamas numbers, which we also know include Hamas fighters (e.g. non-civilians), estimates I have seen are civilian casualties exclusive of Hamas fighters is around the 18k or so range.

2. The civilian casualties in the Ukraine war are solely civilians killed in Ukrainian territory, that Ukraine has recovered and reported. Russia does not report on civilian casualties. Several large Ukrainian cities that were essentially levelled by artillery in prolonged sieges, and which still are under Russian control, for example, we have no meaningful casualty data from. Basically everyone knows those incidents caused many thousands of civilians deaths.

Think critically and don't post fake shit.

[Threviel]

Israel is giving as much deference to civilian casualties as any country does fighting a major war. It gives more consideration than countries like Russia.

That is objectively false.  Despite employing far greater firepower in Ukraine, Russia has killed just less than 11,000 civilians in 25 months.  Israel has killed over 30,000 in six months.

Whilst you are correct about the confirmed number of civilian deaths in Ukraine the Ukrainian government claims that 25.000 died in Mariupol alone, numbers which are orders of magnitudes more credible than anything from the PA.

[Tamas]

In a way I think the number of civilian casualties is mostly irrelevant. Either Israel has a right/valid reason to seek a decisive military victory over its enemies controlling Gaza, in which case I fail to see how they'd have more responsibility for Gazan lives than Israeli ones i.e. the losses are irrelevant, OR they are not justified to seek a complete military victory over (people controlling) Gaza, in which case pretty much any civilian casualty there is unacceptable.

[Josquius]

Israel is giving as much deference to civilian casualties as any country does fighting a major war. It gives more consideration than countries like Russia.

That is objectively false.  Despite employing far greater firepower in Ukraine, Russia has killed just less than 11,000 civilians in 25 months.  Israel has killed over 30,000 in six months.

Whilst you are correct about the confirmed number of civilian deaths in Ukraine the Ukrainian government claims that 25.000 died in Mariupol alone, numbers which are orders of magnitudes more credible than anything from the PA.

The Palestinian numbers are regarded as being pretty good all things considered.

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23940215/israel-palestine-gaza-hamas-death-toll-war-fatalities-verified-count-conflict

Though getting hung up on this does sort of miss the point. Has Israel killed 5000 or 4000 children?.... does it matter? Its clear the numbers have crossed the threshold of being considered fucked up.

[crazy canuck]

In a way I think the number of civilian casualties is mostly irrelevant. Either Israel has a right/valid reason to seek a decisive military victory over its enemies controlling Gaza, in which case I fail to see how they'd have more responsibility for Gazan lives than Israeli ones i.e. the losses are irrelevant, OR they are not justified to seek a complete military victory over (people controlling) Gaza, in which case pretty much any civilian casualty there is unacceptable.

In a way I think the number of civilian casualties is mostly irrelevant. Either Israel has a right/valid reason to seek a decisive military victory over its enemies controlling Gaza, in which case I fail to see how they'd have more responsibility for Gazan lives than Israeli ones i.e. the losses are irrelevant, OR they are not justified to seek a complete military victory over (people controlling) Gaza, in which case pretty much any civilian casualty there is unacceptable.

You are ignoring the fact that Israel has itself designated certain areas as safe for civilians and aid, but they attack there anyway.

Mistakes happen, but the finding quoted a few posts ago that the Israelis simply don't care if they are killing civilians is objectively monstrous, if that quote is accurate.

[Razgovory]

The Palestinian numbers are regarded as being pretty good all things considered.

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23940215/israel-palestine-gaza-hamas-death-toll-war-fatalities-verified-count-conflict

Though getting hung up on this does sort of miss the point. Has Israel killed 5000 or 4000 children?.... does it matter? Its clear the numbers have crossed the threshold of being considered fucked up.

What is the threshold of being considered fucked up and what is the rememdy?

[Josquius]

The Palestinian numbers are regarded as being pretty good all things considered.

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23940215/israel-palestine-gaza-hamas-death-toll-war-fatalities-verified-count-conflict

Though getting hung up on this does sort of miss the point. Has Israel killed 5000 or 4000 children?.... does it matter? Its clear the numbers have crossed the threshold of being considered fucked up.

What is the threshold of being considered fucked up and what is the rememdy?

If I say 1000 and only 999 kids got killed in a bombing campaign then that makes everything totally fine?
The actual numbers of deaths are clearly well beyond what would be considered reasonable. Asking for a simple definition of what is reasonable again  misses the point and is clearly not asked in good faith.

[OttoVonBismarck]

The "how many children" thing just isn't relevant to me. If a war is justified and you aren't violating the laws of war, incidental children deaths are tragedies but shouldn't determine a political or diplomatic response to the war.

I don't know how many children the Allies killed to win WWII, but I know it was orders of magnitude more than 1000 or 5000. I don't know very many people that credibly argue the Allies were wrong to fight the war to the point of complete defeat of the Axis powers.

[Razgovory]

  How do we know what is clearly beyond what would be considered reasonable if we don't what is reasonable?  You were the one who brought up thresholds.  I have no idea what number of dead kid you would consider totally fine.  Nor do I know what you think we should do about it.

[HVC]

Israel military suspends senior officers involved in aid worker convoy strike

Apparently IDF investigates and presumably prosecutes its perceived war crimes, looking forward to Hamas doing the same.

What about the 190 odd humanitarian aid worker deaths. Not worthy of investigation and/or punishment. Only the incident that garnered international condemnation ? How convenient

[crazy canuck]

Israel military suspends senior officers involved in aid worker convoy strike

Apparently IDF investigates and presumably prosecutes its perceived war crimes, looking forward to Hamas doing the same.

What about the 190 odd humanitarian aid worker deaths. Not worthy of investigation and/or punishment. Only the incident that garnered international condemnation ? How convenient

I don't know why Threviel is comparing a liberal democratic country to a terrorist organization.  I am not sure he thought that comparison through.

[Razgovory]

If Hamas is simply a terrorist organization than the authorities of Gaza should have no problem handing them over to Israeli authorities.