Israel-Hamas War 2023

[OttoVonBismarck]

Albanese is a Holocaust minimizer.

[Tamas]

Seems like the IDF has reached the coast south of Gaza City, according to their spokeperson they are now starting to round up the tunnels.

Meanwhile, Twitter rumour from Syrian "sources" is that "thousands" of Iranian militia members have started to arrive in Southern Lebanon.

[PJL]

Seems like the IDF has reached the coast south of Gaza City, according to their spokeperson they are now starting to round up the tunnels.

Meanwhile, Twitter rumour from Syrian "sources" is that "thousands" of Iranian militia little green men members have started to arrive in Southern Lebanon.

Corrected FYP.

[Jacob]

So there's going to be a counter push, potentially?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Everything I have read suggests the primary reason Hezbollah hasn't intervened is because then Israel has no reason at all not to wage a huge aerial attack against Iran itself (which still has very weak anti air etc compared to the capabilities of Israel—Iran has lots of soldiers and old kit or home brewed Russian knock offs, but has weak / terrible tech).

Basically the Hezbollah border is a Mexican stand off. Israel won't unilaterally bomb Iran because they know a damaging Hezbollah rocket attack will follow. But if that rocket attack comes anyway Israel has no reason not to attack its true source.

[viper37]

Albanese is a Holocaust minimizer.

According to Wikipedia she believes Israel is using the guilt of the Holocaust to pursue colonization in occupied Palestinian territories.

Is it what you are referring to or is there something else?

[crazy canuck]

The thing that bothered me most was the cutting off of water. It didn't seem to have any obvious military purpose. WIlling to be persuaded otherwise.

As far as the miltary operations are concerned, it's impossible to make any judgement at this stage other tan the obvious fact that you can't attack Hamas without collateral civilian damage.

The issue will be one of proportionality.  I agree that it is difficult to judge and particularly with the fog of war.  Also we still need to see what the goal of the Israelis actually is.

[Razgovory]

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children

It is an ancient custom for the Arabs to throw rocks at Jews.  Before the Zionists came a kid could toss stones at Jews all day and would be praised for it. The imperialist-colonist-settlers came in and destroyed this aspect of beautiful indigenous culture. They shot back! 

[viper37]

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children

It is an ancient custom for the Arabs to throw rocks at Jews.  Before the Zionists came a kid could toss stones at Jews all day and would be praised for it. The imperialist-colonist-settlers came in and destroyed this aspect of beautiful indigenous culture. They shot back!

And yet, the Palestinians must put grids in their settlements to protect themselves from the rocks thrown at them by the Israelis.

Are you saying the Israeli Jews have picked up this custom too?  So they're as barbaric as you believe all Arabs are?


If I remember my catechism right, rock throwing was a Jewish thing in ancient times.  It was a method of execution favored for certain crimes.  I can not tell you where it originated and whom picked it up from whom.

But ancient execution methods and ancient traditions are hardly relevant in the modern context here.

[Razgovory]

I think it's important to put this act of resistance context: Oppression of Jews.

[viper37]

I think it's important to put this act of resistance context: Oppression of Jews.

Which oppression of Jews?  How are Jews oppressed here?
Hamas committed a terror act, it's not oppression, it's a terror act.

Let us look at the definition here:
prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control.

That fits the definition of the Palestinians.  But certainly not the Jewish population of Israel.

Unless you are telling me the government of Israel is applying a prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control of its own people?  I have seen no evidence of that, but you are welcome to submit your evidence.

[Razgovory]

I think it's important to put this act of resistance context: Oppression of Jews.

Which oppression of Jews?  How are Jews oppressed here?
Hamas committed a terror act, it's not oppression, it's a terror act.

Let us look at the definition here:
prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control.

That fits the definition of the Palestinians.  But certainly not the Jewish population of Israel.

Unless you are telling me the government of Israel is applying a prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control of its own people?  I have seen no evidence of that, but you are welcome to submit your evidence.

No, they threw rocks at Jews before the Zionists came.  When Jews were second-class citizens.

[Valmy]

But ancient execution methods and ancient traditions are hardly relevant in the modern context here.

Dude. This is the Eastern Hemisphere. Stuff from thousands of years ago is often very relevant. The English are still mad about 1066.

Over here in the Americas we have shorter memories.

But we are not talking about things from thousands of years ago. We are talking about stuff from a hundred or so years ago. Even over here memories aren't that short.

[Threviel]

I've been thinking about more humane tactics from Israel. We all know that there are lots of things they should have done, but didn't, but right now that doesn't matter.

The level of violence inflicted on Israel demands a strong and resolute response, to work as a future deterrent. So the present shenanigans where they'll try to, and probably succeed, break the government of Gaza is probably necessary. Any weaker response and it's like bathing in chum at shark fest, everyone will want to attack them since it carries no consequences.

But then what? They'll have direct responsibility for Gaza and be force to govern it. What can they realistically do to ensure a long lasting peace? What can anyone do?

My suggestion is to do as in Kosovo, get Nato involved. Have Nato ensure the security of Gaza, let Nato patrol the streets. Sure, they don't have the legitimacy in the eyes of the Arab world perhaps, but nothing western short of the SS would be acceptable from Arab world anyhow, so that doesn't really matter. Have Nato guarantee democracy and rule of law, so that even if some extremists win they can't completely take over as happened with Hamas.

If Nato were to ensure security then the UN can come in with aid, but make it with Israeli surveillance so that the aid goes to where it's supposed to go instead of to terrorists. Have the UN run schools and TV stations to get away from the "Exterminate all the jews"-indoctrination that Palestine kids have to sit through. At the same time Nato has legitimacy in Israel that the UN does not.

Support all reasonable secular political movements and have elections in order to build political parties. Let the elected bodies take over government part by part over decades until they can run it on their own. 

Give the same offer to the West Bank. Perhaps shove it down their throats.

Do not, under any circumstances, allow any Jewish settlements in Palestinian territories.

I give this chain of events 0% probability of happening, but I have a hard time seeing anything very different from this succeeding in the long run.

Edit: Of course ethnic cleansing would also solve the problem and would perhaps be the best solution for Israel, but I don't think anyone really wants that and it's not very nice. Would make Israel a pariah state for a generation, but that might perhaps be acceptable. Anyhow, that would be a horrible solution and I hope it doesn't come to that.

[Razgovory]

There is no country in NATO who wants their citizens patrolling the streets of Gaza.