Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Admiral Yi]

Thanks Grabby.

That certainly does not fit the Jews in Palestine up to 48.

[Josquius]

So, from a general view Hamas can be seen as having overwhelming support from the population of Gaza, it's about as common to not support them as it is to believe in UFO's in the US, about 40%.

Kim has 104% support in north Korea.

I would love to see reliable data that refutes me if you have it?

Thats the point.
Trying to poll the popularity of the leadership in a place where not supporting them might have bad consequences is a very difficult task.

[Threviel]

Thats the point.
Trying to poll the popularity of the leadership in a place where not supporting them might have bad consequences is a very difficult task.

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/new-poll-shows-gazans-pragmatic-now-not-long-term

Gaza is not North Korea, polling is done all the time, even though, as you say, it's complicated. The second link seems to show a more complex picture of how much support Hamas has and that support of Hamas is not support of genocide.

Also notable is that Gazans continue to express disapproval of Hamas' policies towards Israel. About half (53%) agree at least somewhat that "Hamas should stop calling for Israel's destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders," a percentage that has held steady over the last three years. 59% of Gazans also agree that Hamas should give up its armed units in favor of PA officers in Gaza. Likewise, nearly two-thirds of Gazans would agree at least somewhat with the need for Hamas to preserve the cease-fire in both Gaza and the West Bank.

Edit: Washington Institute is a pro-Israel think tank, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Josquius]

Thats the point.
Trying to poll the popularity of the leadership in a place where not supporting them might have bad consequences is a very difficult task.

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/new-poll-shows-gazans-pragmatic-now-not-long-term

Gaza is not North Korea, polling is done all the time, even though, as you say, it's complicated. The second link seems to show a more complex picture of how much support Hamas has and that support of Hamas is not support of genocide.

Also notable is that Gazans continue to express disapproval of Hamas' policies towards Israel. About half (53%) agree at least somewhat that "Hamas should stop calling for Israel's destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders," a percentage that has held steady over the last three years. 59% of Gazans also agree that Hamas should give up its armed units in favor of PA officers in Gaza. Likewise, nearly two-thirds of Gazans would agree at least somewhat with the need for Hamas to preserve the cease-fire in both Gaza and the West Bank.

Sure. Gaza isn't North Korea. Hence the poll numbers not being so mad.
There undoubtedly is however a huge pressure to profess your support for the violent bastards lest they use violence against you.
Be caught saying "Jews are people too. We should seek mutual understanding with them" and a beating is due- especially if you fall into those young men demographics.

I'd say its somewhere between North Korea (party line or bullets) and being progressive in a conservative hick town in the west (/working in the non profit sector or some such and being conservative. Shy Tories are a known thing.).

I'd be curious how they managed to get the more nuanced numbers.

[Admiral Yi]

Footage of attack on kibbutz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZBTXaclQV0

[Threviel]

Methodological Note: This analysis is based on a face-to-face survey, conducted June 6-21, 2022, with a true random, geographical probability sample of 513 Palestinian adult (age 18+) residents of Gaza. The author personally reviewed the questionnaire's translation, sampling procedures and quality controls, assurances of confidentiality, and other fieldwork protocols with the entire Palestinian professional team, based in Beit Sahour on the West Bank. The statistical margin of error for a sample of this size and nature is 6 percent, at the 95% confidence level. Additional methodological details, including full responses to all questions in the survey, are available on request, or on the Washington Institute's new interactive polling data platform.

But as with all polling, you get the answers you want. It seems very difficult to find good data, which is not surprising really.

From an Israeli perspective it makes me think that a more measured response would have been preferable. Sure, it's time to go in and decapitate Hamas and it's going to get bloody, but restraint in bombing would perhaps create some goodwill for the aftermath. Make clear that Hamas is the enemy, not the people of Gaza. Some way 2 million+ Palestinians need to be handled after the war and not going all Soviet on them would probably be preferable.

[Sheilbh]

If true this would be a sign of just how crazily large the incursion was.

Also saw this in Reuters which is extraordinary:

In one of the most striking elements of their preparations, Hamas constructed a mock Israeli settlement in Gaza where they practiced a military landing and trained to storm it, the source close to Hamas said, adding they even made videos of the manoeuvres.

"Israel surely saw them but they were convinced that Hamas wasn't keen on getting into a confrontation," the source said.

Edit: Incidentally this is partl why I suspect Hamas have also been preparing for this stage of the Israeli response too.

[crazy canuck]

The Jews arrived first with the permission of the Ottomans and then the British, the two legal administrators of the territory.  If they were colonizers, aren't all immigrants colonizers?

So the logic is that if two colonizing states allow other colonists into an area, they control, and then those people who enter or not themselves colonists. That's some interesting, mental gymnastics.

[Sheilbh]

Although, weren't they more imperial than colonial states? Which, in fairness, just begs the question of how to describe early Zionists.

[crazy canuck]

Although, weren't they more imperial than colonial states? Which, in fairness, just begs the question of how to describe early Zionists.

Fair point. But an imperialist power can also be a colonizer. See North America.

To the extent the British brought in outside populations which displaced indigenous populations, I think it can fairly  be called a colonizer.

Also, Israel doesn't exist without the Balfour declaration. 

[Hamilcar]

"Babies, their heads cut off."

https://x.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1711697093151056355?s=20

[crazy canuck]

It occurs to me that the people who think that the Jewish population who settled in what is now the state of Israel we're always there may not understand the history of how the state of Israel was created.

A critical step was the Balfour declaration, the text of which is quite short:

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Note the recognition that there was existing in that territory communities of Palestinians. This was the creation of something to which the Jews of the world could go to, and create a homeland. Not the recognition of an existing homeland.

It's not surprising that the Palestinians, who lost their land, do largely impart to this declaration view the Israelis as settlers on their land.

To be clear, none of this excuses what Hamas has done.

[Josquius]

Also an annoying point I often see from the useful idiots is the whole "Jews have been there for millenia. Its natural homeland! Palestinians have other countries!" thing.
A whole lot of ignorance of just where the Palestinian population come from- a huge chunk of their makeup comes from the native population who were Christianised under the Romans then heavily Islam/Arabised under the various muslim empires.

The Palestinians sadly seem to have themselves (well, their ancestors) to blame with much of this- it previously being considered socially desirable to concentrate on that one bit of your heritage that can be traced back to the Arab homeland.

[crazy canuck]

Also an annoying point I often see from the useful idiots is the whole "Jews have been there for millenia. Its natural homeland! Palestinians have other countries!" thing.
A whole lot of ignorance of just where the Palestinian population come from- a huge chunk of their makeup comes from the native population who were Christianised under the Romans then heavily Islam/Arabised under the various muslim empires.

The Palestinians sadly seem to have themselves (well, their ancestors) to blame with much of this- it previously being considered socially desirable to concentrate on that one bit of your heritage that can be traced back to the Arab homeland.

Yep.  For people who want to take religious texts, as literally a true one wonders why they don't advocate for cr

Also an annoying point I often see from the useful idiots is the whole "Jews have been there for millenia. Its natural homeland! Palestinians have other countries!" thing.
A whole lot of ignorance of just where the Palestinian population come from- a huge chunk of their makeup comes from the native population who were Christianised under the Romans then heavily Islam/Arabised under the various muslim empires.

The Palestinians sadly seem to have themselves (well, their ancestors) to blame with much of this- it previously being considered socially desirable to concentrate on that one bit of your heritage that can be traced back to the Arab homeland.

I have mentioned this book before, years ago, but if somebody is interested in finding out how unlikely the recognition of a Jewish homeland within Palestine was, and the fact that the creation of such a homeland was widely unpopular within the international Jewish community, I suggest

https://www.amazon.ca/Balfour-Declaration-Origins-Arab-Israeli-Conflict/dp/0385662599

[OttoVonBismarck]

A country can be rooted in colonialism despite its population not being overwhelmingly direct descendants of settlers.

Sure. I don't think that is a fair description of Israel, though. Many of the countries earliest and most important leaders were direct descendants of refugees.

Under Ottoman laws Jews had rights to live in the Empire, and had for its entire existence. The desire to other them or act like they have no business being there serves an entirely fictional and biased narrative.