Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Josquius]

Seen this morning.
Sadly as expected the worst people in Israel are using the worlds outpouring of support for Israel to really push their shit.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[mongers]

100k pro-Palestine protest in London today. You know you are on the right side of an issue when Turkish flags are being pushed into the forefront of the protest you are attending.

No doubt part 'infiltrated' by agents/supporters of various ME regimes, several of which are using staged demos to use the Gaza conflict for their own political gains, especially the likes of Al-Sisi's Egypt, where everything is staged managed.

Also, seems like the US administration has fully embraced collective punishment, to the extent that Biden has all but washed his hands of the 500-600 Americans in Gaza.

[Duque de Bragança]

100k pro-Palestine protest in London today. You know you are on the right side of an issue when Turkish flags are being pushed into the forefront of the protest you are attending.

I guess the illegal Turkish colonisation and occupation in Northern Cyprus does not matter that much. 
OTOH, Israel has a working relationship with Azerbaijan...

[PJL]

I do think Israel has messed up the PR for the current conflict. YouGov did a poll on this a couple of days ago in the UK and there was overwhelming, cross party support for an immediate ceasefire between the two sides:

Details here:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2023/10/19/e363e/1

Which sits starkly with the pro-Israeli Westminster consensus at the moment, especially since even Tory voters are largely in favour of a ceasefire too.

[Sheilbh]

Qatar => gas.

Yeah. They're the UK's gas supplier of last resort, officially. But bluntly I think there is more reliance from them than in the case of, say, Russia and the West is more able to bully them a bit more - and it should.

[Tamas]

100k pro-Palestine protest in London today. You know you are on the right side of an issue when Turkish flags are being pushed into the forefront of the protest you are attending.

I guess the illegal Turkish colonisation and occupation in Northern Cyprus does not matter that much. 
OTOH, Israel has a working relationship with Azerbaijan...

or the Armenian genocide, or the solving of very similar Turkish issue. re the Greeks in the 1920s.

[Sheilbh]

There were also hundreds of thousands of Turks expelled form the Balkans (including Greece) in the 1920s. It's one of those bouts of Europea ethnic cleansing to make people match the borders which is now sort of forgotten, a bit like post-war Germans.

Also Northern Cyprus voted overwhelmingly for the UN negotiated peace plan that would have unified Cyprus. It was the rest of Cyprus that rejected it and were then let into the EU anyway, which was wrong.

I do always find it mad when Europe takes a moral high horse. I'm reminded of the European diplomat who said or the War in Ukraine that it was "inconceivable" for history to be settled in Europe by tank battles, there is literally nowhere in the world where history has been more settled by tank battles than Europe. Similarly, the number of genocides and what we would now consider ethnic cleansing across Europe in the last 150 years to make people match borders is extraordinary. We're a charnel house of a continent that chooses to forget that.

I always think of, I think President Ruto of Kenya's, speech on Ukraine condemning Russia when he noted that Africa was left with states that did not necessarily reflect the people and they were left with borders that no African had even been involved in. But, generally (and especially compared to similar problems in Europe's history - or Partition for that matter), African countries have been trying to make those states work. There's not been many wars over territory or mass expulsions - which isn't to say there's no conflict because of course there is, but not like Europe's historic inability to live with each other.

[Duque de Bragança]

There were also hundreds of thousands of Turks expelled form the Balkans (including Greece) in the 1920s. It's one of those bouts of Europea ethnic cleansing to make people match the borders which is now sort of forgotten, a bit like post-war Germans.

They weren't slaughtered or exterminated, however, unlike what happened to Pontic Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians.
Part of peace treaties, unfortunately. Turkey had also a clause about excluding the Greek minority in Constantinople from the ethnic cleasing which was rendered moot by pogroms in the 1950's
False equivalency.

Also Northern Cyprus voted overwhelmingly for the UN negotiated peace plan that would have unified Cyprus. It was the rest of Cyprus that rejected it and were then let into the EU anyway, which was wrong.

The last one, which made very little for the return of refugees and very little for Turkish settlers (not Turkish Cypriots) to leave. A bad plan.
What's the excuse by the way for Armenians and Assyrians?

[grumbler]

I think that the evidence indicates that the mass expulsions in the Balkans were of Muslims as a whole, of which Turks were a minority (25%?).  Not that this changes anyone's conclusions, but I am just noting it for the record.

[Sheilbh]

They weren't slaughtered or exterminated, however, unlike what happened to Pontic Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians. False equivalency.

No disputing on Armenia or Assyrians, but I don't think you can mention the expulsion of Greeks in the 1920s without the expulsion of Turks in the 1920s - not least because they were part of the same agreement at the end of the same conflict.

The peace fulfils maximal Greek territorial demands/the Megali Idea and Greece invades. As part of its offensive there are massacres of Turks in Anatolia and villages wiped out. Ataturk rallies the Turks into a counter-offensive which is devastatingly successful and ends with the burning of Smyrna. Again there are massacres and expulsions.

After that conflict the parties agree to a population exchange so 1.5 million Greeks and Turks are forced from their homes and into "new" countries. I think it's different from Armenia, for example - and, in particular, with its direct relationship with the Greco-Turkish war I think it prefigures post-WW2 population exchanges across CEE (Western Europe did theirs at an earlier stage).

The last one, which made very little for the return of refugees and very little for Turkish settlers (not Turkish Cypriots) to leave. A bad plan.

I disagree. But also - and this is sort of my position on Israel and Palestine too - I think normally for peace to work part of it is drawing a line under where we are, rather than to right the wrongs of the past. Obviously those legacy issues are also normally the thing that blocks peace because it is difficult to accept that things won't revert, but generally speaking - they don't and it's about finding a way to live together in a way that respects everyone's rights. Not a new round of expulsions or suffering, often for people to young to remember the original conflict.

FWIW I think there will be very little on right to return in Israel and Palestine too.

[Duque de Bragança]

The peace fulfils maximal Greek territorial demands/the Megali Idea and Greece invades. As part of its offensive there are massacres of Turks in Anatolia and villages wiped out. Ataturk rallies the Turks into a counter-offensive which is devastatingly successful and ends with the burning of Smyrna. Again there are massacres and expulsions.

Yes, and the Brits wanted to use the Greeks for their imperial objectives as well. 
Still no mention of the Genocide of the Pontic Greeks, however.

After that conflict the parties agree to a population exchange so 1.5 million Greeks and Turks are forced from their homes and into "new" countries. I think it's different from Armenia, for example - and, in particular, with its direct relationship with the Greco-Turkish war I think it prefigures post-WW2 population exchanges across CEE (Western Europe did theirs at an earlier stage).

Yes, but the Greeks of Constantinople are not be included in the exchange. In later years, second-class status and the great pogrom of Istanbul manage to almost nothing. Even nowadays, for the very little number that remains their status is still second-class, at best.
Then the wave of Turkish settlers in Cyprus. Not exactly comparable.
Western Europe did much less population population exchanges see German-speaking Alto Adige/South Tyrol or even the Papierfranzosen who ended up staying in Alsace and Moselle. Other Alsatians and Mosellans being obviously counted as French.

I disagree. But also - and this is sort of my position on Israel and Palestine too - I think normally for peace to work part of it is drawing a line under where we are, rather than to right the wrongs of the past. Obviously those legacy issues are also normally the thing that blocks peace because it is difficult to accept that things won't revert, but generally speaking - they don't and it's about finding a way to live together in a way that respects everyone's rights. Not a new round of expulsions or suffering, often for people to young to remember the original conflict.

Problem is, Cyprus being already in the EU has more leverage now. Turkish Cypriots, as opposed to Turkish settlers, actually are in a worse position. Turkey is fine with the statu quo.

FWIW I think there will be very little on right to return in Israel and Palestine too.

Agreed, that what was one of the problems which were not solved under the peace plan proposals. They could not even agree on a symbolical return of refugees followed by indemnities of some sort.

[Tamas]

[Crazy_Ivan80]

the building got culturally enriched...

[Sheilbh]

On the Turkish flags I'm not really sure - I've not seen any from images in London and I don't think there's any in the Guardian video either
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2023/oct/21/pro-palestine-protests-take-place-in-london-for-second-consecutive-week-video

[Tamas]

On the Turkish flags I'm not really sure - I've not seen any from images in London and I don't think there's any in the Guardian video either
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2023/oct/21/pro-palestine-protests-take-place-in-london-for-second-consecutive-week-video

From the live Guardian reporting at the time: