Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Threviel]

Yeah, that the world is turning against Israel is so baffling that I don't know what to say. Evidence after evidence on the extreme brutality unleashed against them and still it's the Jews that are hated.

If the logistical preparations for organised centralised mass rape didn't convince anyone about who the bad guys are then nothing is...

[Josquius]

Yeah, that the world is turning against Israel is so baffling that I don't know what to say. Evidence after evidence on the extreme brutality unleashed against them and still it's the Jews that are hated.

If the logistical preparations for organised centralised mass rape didn't convince anyone about who the bad guys are then nothing is...

Nobody (of relevance and not themselves horrid) doubts Hamas and co are evil fuckers. That's never been the debate.

Israel gets criticism because it has all the power and its really smashing the civilian population of gaza hard. A million kids being subjected to abject horror because Israel stronk.

There's not always a simple good and bad.

The vibe of much of the criticism feels to me likes its coming precisely because we are on Israels side. There's no doubt the attacks were bad, they want the hostages back, Hamas need removing, and so on. But theres a big "seriously guys?" factor about how Israel is going about it. That they are on our side makes it particularly worthy of criticism.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, that the world is turning against Israel is so baffling that I don't know what to say. Evidence after evidence on the extreme brutality unleashed against them and still it's the Jews that are hated.

If the logistical preparations for organised centralised mass rape didn't convince anyone about who the bad guys are then nothing is...

Nobody (of relevance and not themselves horrid) doubts Hamas and co are evil fuckers. That's never been the debate.

This is bullshit and you know it.

[Tamas]

So when does refugee camps stop being refugee camps and become towns and cities? Will they still be called that in 2048? I wish the global press wouldn't use Hamas vocabulary on this. Of course THEY call them camps because the whole idea is that one day all those people living there (I wager almost nobody who fled Israeli territory in 1948 is still alive there) will be relocating to "proper" Palestine when they river-to-the-sea all the Jews into the sea.

[Josquius]

So when does refugee camps stop being refugee camps and become towns and cities? Will they still be called that in 2048? I wish the global press wouldn't use Hamas vocabulary on this.

Going off the past few months that disturbingly sounds like a best case scenario.
Note it isn't just in Palestine that you have refugee camps that have existed for generations and it isn't just Hamas cynically using this language. It's an official UN designation.

Far from my area, more one for the lawyers, but I'd imagine refugee camps for Palestinians dissapearing would depend on a definitive outcome to normalise the situation whether it be they get their land back (obviously not) or more likely (but further away than ever) some form of compensation, apologies for the past being shit, mutual recognition dealy.

Of course THEY call them camps because the whole idea is that one day all those people living there (I wager almost nobody who fled Israeli territory in 1948 is still alive there) will be relocating to "proper" Palestine when they river-to-the-sea all the Jews into the sea.

There you're being daft.

Yeah, that the world is turning against Israel is so baffling that I don't know what to say. Evidence after evidence on the extreme brutality unleashed against them and still it's the Jews that are hated.

If the logistical preparations for organised centralised mass rape didn't convince anyone about who the bad guys are then nothing is...

Nobody (of relevance and not themselves horrid) doubts Hamas and co are evil fuckers. That's never been the debate.

This is bullshit and you know it.

This is bullshit and you know it.

[Razgovory]

The head of the labor party was keen on Hamas.  Mélenchon in France refuses to condemn Hamas along with his party.  We've had several American politicians refuse to condemn Hamas as well.

[Josquius]

The head of the labor party was keen on Hamas.  Mélenchon in France refuses to condemn Hamas along with his party.  We've had several American politicians refuse to condemn Hamas as well.

One by one
1: pure lie
2: a guy whose best showing was a lucky third in the French election refuses to condemn them?
Falls short of both being someone of relevance  and in actually supporting them.
3: again plenty of reasons why someone might not want to join the 5 minutes of hate other than thinking Hamas are swell actually. And pretty sure none of these handful of politicians are particularly prominent.

[Threviel]

Lots of people seem to hate Jews, here in Sweden we have socialist parliamentarians that support Hamas and refuse to condemn them. And a Social Democrat party indirectly supporting them through their lack of condemnation. And they are in turn supported by lots of people like Jos.

This conflict made me realise that Jew-hatred is a thing, especially amongst middle easterners, but also amongst otherwise sane looking westerners and even in East Asia. Hamas has huge global support. We can pretend it's not a thing, but that's pretending.

By different levels of separation the pro-Gaza crowd support Hamas, it's genocide support by naivety.

The only way to support the people of Gaza without supporting the goals of Hamas at the same time is to argue for Hamas to immediately give up power and support investigations into the crimes committed and the apprehension of those responsible. But I haven't actually heard that from anyone. No-one seems to argue that any end to the present conflict necessarily must to end with Hamas out of power.

[Admiral Yi]

Nobody (of relevance and not themselves horrid) doubts Hamas and co are evil fuckers. That's never been the debate.

Plenty of Palestinians do not see Hamas as evil fuckers.  We can see that in the survey results.

Plenty of others accept the logic that 40 years of occupation inevitably led to the October 7 attack.  Implicitly that means they are not evil fuckers.

[Razgovory]

The head of the labor party was keen on Hamas.  Mélenchon in France refuses to condemn Hamas along with his party.  We've had several American politicians refuse to condemn Hamas as well.

One by one
1: pure lie
2: a guy whose best showing was a lucky third in the French election refuses to condemn them?
Falls short of both being someone of relevance  and in actually supporting them.
3: again plenty of reasons why someone might not want to join the 5 minutes of hate other than thinking Hamas are swell actually. And pretty sure none of these handful of politicians are particularly prominent.

Corbyn having "friends" in Hamas is a "pure lie"?  Oh, you are sure that these American politicians who refused to denounce Hamas are not prominent.  Alexandria Ocasio Cortez was one of them.  You heard of her?

[Razgovory]

I will tell you, this thing with Israel has left me a bit ticked-off at my fellow leftists.

[DGuller]

I will tell you, this thing with Israel has left me a bit ticked-off at my fellow leftists.

It definitely made me start thinking about the conditions when I will no longer consider myself a left-winger.  Genocide enablement is just one issue, but it's a pretty big issue (and no, only one side is aiming to perpetrate a genocide, and it's the side that thankfully as of this moment can only do it on a scale of a music concert or a kibbutz).

[Jacob]

I've also reconsidered a number of my assumptions and arguments in the wake of the Oct 7th attacks.

[Josquius]

The head of the labor party was keen on Hamas.  Mélenchon in France refuses to condemn Hamas along with his party.  We've had several American politicians refuse to condemn Hamas as well.

One by one
1: pure lie
2: a guy whose best showing was a lucky third in the French election refuses to condemn them?
Falls short of both being someone of relevance  and in actually supporting them.
3: again plenty of reasons why someone might not want to join the 5 minutes of hate other than thinking Hamas are swell actually. And pretty sure none of these handful of politicians are particularly prominent.

Corbyn having "friends" in Hamas is a "pure lie"?  Oh, you are sure that these American politicians who refused to denounce Hamas are not prominent.  Alexandria Ocasio Cortez was one of them.  You heard of her?

Firstly Corbyn isn't labour leader. He's a independent backbench MP and a complete irrelevancy.
Keir starmer is labour leader and he has had a very by the book response.
Though still need to defend Corbyn - as much as he's an absolute tool of a tankie at least insult him based on reality - he doesn't have friends in Hamas. That's ridiculous Tory spin.

AOC is famous but again not joining the officially sanctioned five minutes of hate isn't the same thing as supporting Hamas. I've no idea what she has had to say on the topic. Anything? She's also despite her fame nowhere near a relevant player in the situation.

I will tell you, this thing with Israel has left me a bit ticked-off at my fellow leftists.

Tankies couldn't get any lower in my estimation after Ukraine. I don't follow any social media channels where they hang out to get their nonsense around Palestine though.

As far as here goes though it is weird that some otherwise rational folk seem to embrace an outright trump level black and white view on things. Israel can do no wrong. Hamas are evil thus those Palestinian children have it coming.

[Admiral Yi]

As far as here goes though it is weird that some otherwise rational folk seem to embrace an outright trump level black and white view on things. Israel can do no wrong. Hamas are evil thus those Palestinian children have it coming.

This the point where I have to decide whether to tell you to go fuck yourself or tune you out for the duration and hope you recover.

Would you like to retract this statement?