Most American young men are single. Most young women are not.

[Jacob]

Anecdotally, whenever I ask younger established couples I meet how they met the majority of answers are some variation of "online."

[The Minsky Moment]

That's what always pissed me off. There's still a social expectation for men to be the ones to do the work despite women being the ones with the higher standards.
Women do the approaching then there's a lot less hurt in the world.

But one of the things that women are selecting for is demonstration of a minimal level of social skills and some degree of emotional resilience.  So the ability to approach a person and risk rejection is a basic selection mechanism and one that is hard to perfectly replicate online.

From the man's perspective, I think it helps to consider the positives.  The worst that happens is a rude rejection; but that's really a plus in the sense that it quickly identifies a person that isn't worth your time. 

[Jacob]

Yeah agreed.

I mean, I don't like rejection either, but the ability to handle it - or the risk of it - is a pretty important trait in a partner. Come to think of it, that actually begins justify a bit of the whole "playing games" thing as well. If a prospective mate freaks the fuck out when faced with a bit of mixed signals (which could easily be down to lack of decisivensess, shyness, or other perfectly acceptable reasons) then they're probably not going to be a good partner.

At the same time, being emotionally and socially aware enough that you can approach someone and gauge their interest without setting yourself up for humiliation (however you define it) is also a worthwhile quality.

[Valmy]

But one of the things that women are selecting for is demonstration of a minimal level of social skills and some degree of emotional resilience.  So the ability to approach a person and risk rejection is a basic selection mechanism and one that is hard to perfectly replicate online.

From the man's perspective, I think it helps to consider the positives.  The worst that happens is a rude rejection; but that's really a plus in the sense that it quickly identifies a person that isn't worth your time. 

Now don't get me wrong, I never ceased approaching people in appropriate social conditions if they presented themselves. And the rejection itself never bothered me that much.

However, it sure seemed like I wasn't just being rejected. I felt like I was distressing or upsetting these women somehow. That was something I had a hard time with. That was certainly not something I ever wanted, even if they had no interest I would hope that they would at least be flattered or whatever.

The hostility I would sometimes get for just smiling and saying hi was hard to deal with. And then once social media started to be a thing I would see the women complaining about men approaching them and how horrible and scary they found it.

So after that I was like "ok women clearly do not want me to approach them." So from that point on I was very careful to ensure that the social circumstances were ideal and I had people around who could vouch for me and all that. Parties and things where I had some distant social connection to the person.

So sure social anxiety around approaching people I don't know was a thing and sure being vulnerable and possibly being rejected was a thing. But the main problem was is I am just not up for upsetting or frightening or making people uncomfortable. That is too much. You can humiliate me all you want, I don't care, but damn I don't want to walk away feeling like I ruined your day. Maybe I was just too sensitive to pick up randos, I don't know.

Also there is the problem that I don't know anything about this person. Chances are she is not even looking for anybody, I generally had better luck if I at least had a social connection no matter how distant so I at least sort of knew her general situation. Or online when she will just tell you.

[Josquius]

Yeah, that was the thing for me too. If it was just me being rejected  and failing then that would be that. But instead they was the risk of upsetting them, and then thinking selfishly again being branded as a horrid person.

I always had a habit of it ending up with girls I wasn't too into as there was less of a big deal in making an enemy of someone I don't care about than someone who seemed really nice.

[Tamas]

It would be funny if after all this philosophising it would turn out the reason is simply that it's a small number of young guys having what the young women perceive as a relationship with multiple of them, to produce these skewed numbers.

But I would guess is more due to how the man being older than the woman is by default a plus in most women's eyes. I think what society attributes as manly qualities are easier to spot (or rather imagine into) an older guy.

[Sheilbh]

I'm still hoping for surprise lesbian takeover.

[HVC]

I'm still hoping for surprise lesbian takeover.

a common fantasy. It appears you're straighter then you think

[Crazy_Ivan80]

maybe a part of the discussion should be the period in the young men's lives before they arrive at this point.
What's the influence of education, and how that education is done?
What's the influence of society generally not being able/willing to accept much of the play (amongst boys more often than not) that would in past times have allowed these kids to socialize properly while letting out the energy.

on the other side attitudes and behavious amongst young women could probably be identified that are also not quite healthy and conductive towards the formation of relationships.

I'd say to go get that funding if people weren't already trying to figure out what's going on.

[Josquius]

I'm still hoping for surprise lesbian takeover.

a common fantasy. It appears you're straighter then you think

He just wants to find a cheap joiner.

[jimmy olsen]

I'm seeing conversations about this in some of the European media I follow as well, and I think it matches some of what I'm seeing discussed in China and Japan as well.

And yet... if 60 percent of young men being unattached indicates all those things, I think it'd be worthwhile to compare that rate to rates in the past. When was it different, and how different was it?

I was shocked to recently read this. Certainly not what I expected.

https://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/1076546.html

Koreans are most likely to marry across income levels, study of major economies finds

Posted on : Jan.20,2023 15:02 KST Modified on : Jan.20,2023 15:02 KST

Marriages between lower-income men and middle-income women occur more frequently in South Korea than in other major countries

South Korea has the lowest number of so-called "equal income marriages" in which a man and woman with comparable income levels are married, according to a recently published study on major economies. These findings are somewhat different from the socially accepted idea that men and women belonging to similar socio-economic classes, such as professionals or those working at major corporations, will marry people in similar circles.

According to a new report published on Thursday by the Bank of Korea titled "The Effects of Earnings Homogamy and Household Structure on Household Income Inequality: Cross-country Comparisons," the tendency for men and women with similar incomes to marry in Korea was lower than in other major countries.

When comparing an index of similar income marriages (calculated by dividing the earned income of married couples into 10 quintiles), South Korea's index figure stood at 1.16 times, the lowest among 34 major economies (33 OECD countries and Taiwan).

Japan's figures were 1.32 times, the US 1.50 times, the UK 1.71 times, and France 1.19 times. In fact, the average index of same-income marriages in the 33 countries analyzed, excluding South Korea, came out to 1.60.

The closer the index figure is to 1, the more often men and women marry across income levels to form a household. As such, the higher the number of men and women with similar incomes getting married to each other in a country, the greater the figure.

Thursday's report is based on empirical analysis of household survey data collected from 2005 through 2019.

While the report did note that there are indeed marriages in Korea between men and women of similar income levels, marriages among those with different incomes, such as a high-income man and unemployed or low-income woman or low-income man and a woman with a median or high income level, were observed relatively more often in South Korea compared to the other countries studied.

The conventional wisdom in South Korea is that those belonging to higher income groups, such as professionals, civil servants, or those working at large companies, tend to find marriage partners with similar levels of income. However, this report shows that there are other aspects of marriage that have yet to be more widely understood.

According to the report, in other major countries, men with higher incomes were less likely to marry lower-income women, but in South Korea, this phenomenon occurred slightly more frequently. Moreover, marriages between lower-income men and middle-income women also occur more frequently in South Korea than in other major countries.

The report also explained how such marriage tendencies in South Korea are influencing the alleviation of income inequality.

"High-income and low-income individuals are meeting to form middle-income households," the report stated, adding that "as a result, income inequality is easing at the household level compared to income inequality at the individual level."

According to the research, the proportion of single-person households and single-parent households in South Korea, which is relatively lower compared to other major countries, is also having a positive impact when it comes to alleviating inequality in the country.

As of 2019, the proportion of single-person households and single-parent households in South Korea was 14.7% and 4.0%, respectively, which is lower than the average of the other major countries (22.6% and 7.4%, respectively).

Nevertheless, the report did raise the possibility that the trend of marriages among individuals with similar income levels and household structures could change in a way that could unfavorably impact income inequality in the future.

"Efforts are needed to reduce labor market inequality as well as active government redistribution policies to alleviate household income inequality," the report emphasized.

By Cho Kye-wan, senior staff writer

[crazy canuck]

I'm seeing conversations about this in some of the European media I follow as well, and I think it matches some of what I'm seeing discussed in China and Japan as well.

And yet... if 60 percent of young men being unattached indicates all those things, I think it'd be worthwhile to compare that rate to rates in the past. When was it different, and how different was it?

I wonder how closely this tracks to the last time we had this kind of wealth inequality and financial insecurity for the young. I'm thinking about the work that Picketty does to compare our current economic circumstances to the Victorian age.

It may be that young women are not becoming choosier, but because they now have careers just like men do, they also are economically compelled to wait longer before they choose a companion of significance.

[crazy canuck]

I'm seeing conversations about this in some of the European media I follow as well, and I think it matches some of what I'm seeing discussed in China and Japan as well.

And yet... if 60 percent of young men being unattached indicates all those things, I think it'd be worthwhile to compare that rate to rates in the past. When was it different, and how different was it?

I was shocked to recently read this. Certainly not what I expected.

https://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/1076546.html

Koreans are most likely to marry across income levels, study of major economies finds

Posted on : Jan.20,2023 15:02 KST Modified on : Jan.20,2023 15:02 KST

Marriages between lower-income men and middle-income women occur more frequently in South Korea than in other major countries

South Korea has the lowest number of so-called "equal income marriages" in which a man and woman with comparable income levels are married, according to a recently published study on major economies. These findings are somewhat different from the socially accepted idea that men and women belonging to similar socio-economic classes, such as professionals or those working at major corporations, will marry people in similar circles.

According to a new report published on Thursday by the Bank of Korea titled "The Effects of Earnings Homogamy and Household Structure on Household Income Inequality: Cross-country Comparisons," the tendency for men and women with similar incomes to marry in Korea was lower than in other major countries.

When comparing an index of similar income marriages (calculated by dividing the earned income of married couples into 10 quintiles), South Korea's index figure stood at 1.16 times, the lowest among 34 major economies (33 OECD countries and Taiwan).

Japan's figures were 1.32 times, the US 1.50 times, the UK 1.71 times, and France 1.19 times. In fact, the average index of same-income marriages in the 33 countries analyzed, excluding South Korea, came out to 1.60.

The closer the index figure is to 1, the more often men and women marry across income levels to form a household. As such, the higher the number of men and women with similar incomes getting married to each other in a country, the greater the figure.

Thursday's report is based on empirical analysis of household survey data collected from 2005 through 2019.

While the report did note that there are indeed marriages in Korea between men and women of similar income levels, marriages among those with different incomes, such as a high-income man and unemployed or low-income woman or low-income man and a woman with a median or high income level, were observed relatively more often in South Korea compared to the other countries studied.

The conventional wisdom in South Korea is that those belonging to higher income groups, such as professionals, civil servants, or those working at large companies, tend to find marriage partners with similar levels of income. However, this report shows that there are other aspects of marriage that have yet to be more widely understood.

According to the report, in other major countries, men with higher incomes were less likely to marry lower-income women, but in South Korea, this phenomenon occurred slightly more frequently. Moreover, marriages between lower-income men and middle-income women also occur more frequently in South Korea than in other major countries.

The report also explained how such marriage tendencies in South Korea are influencing the alleviation of income inequality.

"High-income and low-income individuals are meeting to form middle-income households," the report stated, adding that "as a result, income inequality is easing at the household level compared to income inequality at the individual level."

According to the research, the proportion of single-person households and single-parent households in South Korea, which is relatively lower compared to other major countries, is also having a positive impact when it comes to alleviating inequality in the country.

As of 2019, the proportion of single-person households and single-parent households in South Korea was 14.7% and 4.0%, respectively, which is lower than the average of the other major countries (22.6% and 7.4%, respectively).

Nevertheless, the report did raise the possibility that the trend of marriages among individuals with similar income levels and household structures could change in a way that could unfavorably impact income inequality in the future.

"Efforts are needed to reduce labor market inequality as well as active government redistribution policies to alleviate household income inequality," the report emphasized.

By Cho Kye-wan, senior staff writer

It is consistent with what I see happening with the younger lawyers I know. People find life partners because they are attracted to them not because of what they earn.

That women are now earning significant incomes, means that they no longer have to put up with a wealthy man who otherwise is unattractive.

Of course, this is not very popular with the males who have trouble attracting females. It is far more comforting for those males to think that it is because they don't earn enough.

[Sheilbh]

I wonder how closely this tracks to the last time we had this kind of wealth inequality and financial insecurity for the young. I'm thinking about the work that Picketty does to compare our current economic circumstances to the Victorian age.

It may be that young women are not becoming choosier, but because they now have careers just like men do, they also are economically compelled to wait longer before they choose a companion of significance.

In terms of pushing it back/waiting I'd add that in the UK - I imagine Canada too - and other countries with housing issues that it's also a big issue. We know that affordability of housing has an impact on household formation.

And I think it can cut both ways - the only way to afford a property for most is in a relationship, but the inability to afford especially a family home, is a huge problem in people deciding whether to have a family or not and requires people to save for longer.

[Josquius]

Echos of what I've been thinking for a while. Japan isn't weird on this. Its just ahead of the times.