Finland, Sweden + NATO

[DGuller]

Yeah, the geography thing was a way for the US to not get tangled up in colonial wars, that ship has sailed by now.

Make it a requirement to be a democratic state ruled by law so that no new Hungary's can come from the inside.

Long term get Japan, Korea, Republic of China and perhaps even India into the alliance, makes China practically untouchable by the commies.

Didn't NATO always exclude colonial wars?  Quite a few NATO members were attacked in their colonies during that time.

[Threviel]

Yeah, the geography thing was a way for the US to not get tangled up in colonial wars, that ship has sailed by now.

Didn't NATO always exclude colonial wars?  Quite a few NATO members were attacked in their colonies during that time.

Yeah, that's what I said.

[Solmyr]

The critical thing is that Finland joins. Not Sweden. I understand that the Finns worry that if Sweden isn't in NATO a future nutjob Swedish government may not only not help Finland, but actually stop NATO from using Swedish airspace and territory, damaging the prospects of Finland stopping the Russians near the border (in a few decades it's theoretically possible that the Russian military has improved, so this has to be planned for). But I still think that Finland is safer in NATO, even in a situation where Sweden is not in NATO.

Finland, unfortunately, has tied itself to Sweden on this.

[The Brain]

The critical thing is that Finland joins. Not Sweden. I understand that the Finns worry that if Sweden isn't in NATO a future nutjob Swedish government may not only not help Finland, but actually stop NATO from using Swedish airspace and territory, damaging the prospects of Finland stopping the Russians near the border (in a few decades it's theoretically possible that the Russian military has improved, so this has to be planned for). But I still think that Finland is safer in NATO, even in a situation where Sweden is not in NATO.

Finland, unfortunately, has tied itself to Sweden on this.

Is the reasoning that Finland is safer outside of NATO if Sweden isn't in it?

[Josquius]

How would NATO work if in a ridiculous theoretical Sweden is attacked, and via the bilateral treaty the UK sends troops to help, and then the attacker destroys British infrastructure  ?

[Barrister]

Yeah, the geography thing was a way for the US to not get tangled up in colonial wars, that ship has sailed by now.

Make it a requirement to be a democratic state ruled by law so that no new Hungary's can come from the inside.

Long term get Japan, Korea, Republic of China and perhaps even India into the alliance, makes China practically untouchable by the commies.

Fuck India.

I mean I understand the impulse - hey it's a large sort-of democratic state that can be a counter-weight to communist China!  Swinging India into the western alignment has been a goal of the west for a couple of decades.

But India refuses to quit Russia, continues to see itself in the non-aligned movement.  Perhaps it's due to the lingering US alliance with Pakistan.  But in any case - fuck them (or at least their government).

[grumbler]

I agree that, so long as Indian voters will elect guys like Modious, you don't want to hitch your wagon to India.

[Sheilbh]

Fuck India.

I mean I understand the impulse - hey it's a large sort-of democratic state that can be a counter-weight to communist China!  Swinging India into the western alignment has been a goal of the west for a couple of decades.

But India refuses to quit Russia, continues to see itself in the non-aligned movement.  Perhaps it's due to the lingering US alliance with Pakistan.  But in any case - fuck them (or at least their government).

Yeah India doesn't want to be swung into anyone else's alliance. It's deep to the core non-aligned and it's one of the relatively few holdovers of Nehru's India. I think there is a genuine view in Delhi that resist and is opposed to alliance systems as locking the world into conflict. It is real non-alignment as a core part of their foreign policy outlook.

Russia's a historic friend though India's not super-keen on the invasion. I think India will work with the US and the Western alliance (like the Quad) against China but I don't think it'll ever be willing to join an alliance on one side or the other.

[Barrister]

This forum can be funny.  I thought I was giving an edgy take, only to have grumbles and Sheilbh agree with me.

Whereas other times I think I'm saying something very boring and mainstream only to have people jump all over me.

[HVC]

Your "boring" posts are often politically and/or socially conservative. Every political stripe can agree india sucks for various reasons

[Sheilbh]

Your "boring" posts are often politically and/or socially conservative. Every political stripe can agree india sucks for various reasons

I'm not saying India sucks

[HVC]

Your "boring" posts are often politically and/or socially conservative. Every political stripe can agree india sucks for various reasons

I'm not saying India sucks

Neutrality sucks. That's why the Swiss are evil too. That and the nazi gold

[Syt]

Your "boring" posts are often politically and/or socially conservative. Every political stripe can agree india sucks for various reasons

My (progressive) co-worker from India says India (and Modi) sucks.

[Sheilbh]

Neutrality sucks. That's why the Swiss are evil too. That and the nazi gold

I think we can all agree that Switzerland is evil.

Even putting the Nazi gold aside, any country that FIFA chooses as its base has to be pretty fucked up.

But neutrality isn't necessarily the same as India's non-aligned position.

And also it is an awkward fact that India's is not unusual. It is the default position of the global South - it's broadly shared by most Latin American countries and most African countries as well. My own take is that while India's never going to be part of the Western alliance the general ambivalence of the global South is a concern and something the US and Europe should probably work to try and fix now.

[Grey Fox]

This forum can be funny.  I thought I was giving an edgy take, only to have grumbles and Sheilbh agree with me.

Whereas other times I think I'm saying something very boring and mainstream only to have people jump all over me.

Sorry.

Fuck India and beavers.