Trans-gender women set to set collegiate records in multiple swimming events

[Berkut]

Many people have all kinds of concerns about transpersons. Are some feelings more equal than others?

Are you saying that the feelings of these female athletes are of lesser value than the feelings of the male athlete competing against them?

How would a male athlete compete in women's sports (beyond cheaters or by special publicity stunt crap)? Are you saying that transwomen aren't women, but men?

I think the article pretty clearly shows that transgender women who transition late, in this case years, after puberty, have a significant physiological advantage over non-transgender women.

[Tamas]

Many people have all kinds of concerns about transpersons. Are some feelings more equal than others?

Are you saying that the feelings of these female athletes are of lesser value than the feelings of the male athlete competing against them?

How would a male athlete compete in women's sports (beyond cheaters or by special publicity stunt crap)? Are you saying that transwomen aren't women, but men?

I will rephrase to ease your moral conundrum:

Are you saying that the feelings of these female athletes who expressed concerns in the article are of lesser value than the feelings of the male transitioned athlete competing against them?

[The Brain]

In the general turn of events seems like a very minor problem vs "needs to be solved."

Those female swimmers who spent a lot of effort through pretty much all their life with the understanding that they will have a realistic shot at competing, would surely be relieved you are willing to toss their aspirations out the window with such ease.

My guess is that many women (and men) do sports for the love of the sport. Most women (and men) will never be Champ.

As I said, they must be relieved their concerns are such a non-issue.

Many people have all kinds of concerns about transpersons. Are some feelings more equal than others?

Of course. Some feelings are based on demonstrable harm being done for valid concerns, and others are whining about bullshit.

The fact that people cannot (or rather will not) discern between those two things is why the left loses in the court of public opinion as often as it does.

"I don't think transgender people should be allowed to marry because they are gross" is a stupid concern rightly ignored.

"I am worried about the integrity of female sports if biological men who transition are radically more physically capable then women - what should we do about that?" is a rather valid concern that ought to be considered rationally.

Trying to pretend like valid concerns are the same as invalid ones is as dishonest as anything the right does to pretend that their invalid concerns are somehow actually valid.

Concerns about safety and emotional well-being in places like women's restrooms, women's shelters, etc, have been voiced by some people. I don't know if those are valid concerns or not, but safety generally carries a lot more weight than being inconvenienced in sports.

[The Brain]

Many people have all kinds of concerns about transpersons. Are some feelings more equal than others?

Are you saying that the feelings of these female athletes are of lesser value than the feelings of the male athlete competing against them?

How would a male athlete compete in women's sports (beyond cheaters or by special publicity stunt crap)? Are you saying that transwomen aren't women, but men?

I think the article pretty clearly shows that transgender women who transition late, in this case years, after puberty, have a significant physiological advantage over non-transgender women.

Many sports clearly favor certain genetic makeups.

[The Brain]

Many people have all kinds of concerns about transpersons. Are some feelings more equal than others?

Are you saying that the feelings of these female athletes are of lesser value than the feelings of the male athlete competing against them?

How would a male athlete compete in women's sports (beyond cheaters or by special publicity stunt crap)? Are you saying that transwomen aren't women, but men?

I will rephrase to ease your moral conundrum:

Are you saying that the feelings of these female athletes who expressed concerns in the article are of lesser value than the feelings of the male transitioned athlete competing against them?

I think that the onus to make a convincing case lies on the people who argue against equality*, not the people who expect it. "I don't like it" is pretty weak sauce. LOTS of people didn't want Jack Johnson to be Champ.

*As I have said repeatedly in these discussion: I don't know if transwomen are women or not. I am not a doctor and I haven't studied the details even briefly as a layman. If they are NOT women, then obviously they have no business being in women's sports. But if they ARE women, THEN equality would expect them to be able to compete in women's sports. Absent convincing arguments against it.

[Admiral Yi]

Concerns about safety and emotional well-being in places like women's restrooms, women's shelters, etc, have been voiced by some people. I don't know if those are valid concerns or not, but safety generally carries a lot more weight than being inconvenienced in sports.

But we're comparing trans women being inconvenienced in sports to cis women being inconvenienced in sports.

[The Brain]

Concerns about safety and emotional well-being in places like women's restrooms, women's shelters, etc, have been voiced by some people. I don't know if those are valid concerns or not, but safety generally carries a lot more weight than being inconvenienced in sports.

But we're comparing trans women being inconvenienced in sports to cis women being inconvenienced in sports.

We are comparing equality and inequality (if transwomen are women, if they are not women then the discussion is dead since they have no business being in women's sports). If the position is that inconvenience is the bar for denying transpersons equal treatment then that has effects for all other situations where the presence of transpersons are discussed. Unless sports is considered fundamentally different from all other parts of society, which it is not.

[Admiral Yi]

We are comparing equality and inequality (if transwomen are women, if they are not women then the discussion is dead since they have no business being in women's sports). If the position is that inconvenience is the bar for denying transpersons equal treatment then that has effects for all other situations where the presence of transpersons are discussed. Unless sports is considered fundamentally different from all other parts of society, which it is not.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.  You can't poo poo cis women's concerns and not acknowledge that trans women's concerns about sports are exactly equivalent.

[DGuller]

Concerns about safety and emotional well-being in places like women's restrooms, women's shelters, etc, have been voiced by some people. I don't know if those are valid concerns or not, but safety generally carries a lot more weight than being inconvenienced in sports.

But we're comparing trans women being inconvenienced in sports to cis women being inconvenienced in sports.

We are comparing equality and inequality (if transwomen are women, if they are not women then the discussion is dead since they have no business being in women's sports). If the position is that inconvenience is the bar for denying transpersons equal treatment then that has effects for all other situations where the presence of transpersons are discussed. Unless sports is considered fundamentally different from all other parts of society, which it is not.

Why the need to be so strictly binary on this question?  I thought thinking in binary terms was bad when it came to this topic?

[The Brain]

Concerns about safety and emotional well-being in places like women's restrooms, women's shelters, etc, have been voiced by some people. I don't know if those are valid concerns or not, but safety generally carries a lot more weight than being inconvenienced in sports.

But we're comparing trans women being inconvenienced in sports to cis women being inconvenienced in sports.

We are comparing equality and inequality (if transwomen are women, if they are not women then the discussion is dead since they have no business being in women's sports). If the position is that inconvenience is the bar for denying transpersons equal treatment then that has effects for all other situations where the presence of transpersons are discussed. Unless sports is considered fundamentally different from all other parts of society, which it is not.

Why the need to be so strictly binary on this question?  I thought thinking in binary terms was bad when it came to this topic?

Binary? Women's sports is, as the name implies, for women (whatever exactly that means, but it certainly doesn't include non-women). Non-women may come in all kinds of sexes, it doesn't affect women's sports.

[DGuller]

Binary? Women's sports is, as the name implies, for women (whatever exactly that means, but it certainly doesn't include non-women). Non-women may come in all kinds of sexes, it doesn't affect women's sports.

I don't think we should be going by the implications from the name of the sport.  Sports were also named more than a century ago, and we've established that things from a century ago are not helpful here.  Most men's sports, if not all, actually do allow women to compete, so the name of the sport is actually not a good guide for 2021.

[Berkut]

The question seems to me pretty simple.

Transgender women who transition after puberty are going to have developed physiologically in a way that makes them clearly rather different then non trans-gendered women. You would not allow women to take testoserone in order to grow more muscle mass, and then compete in women's athletics for a reason - it creates an unfair (and uninteresting) sport.

Is a transgendered woman a woman? I don't think there is an answer to that question that is useful here.

The question is whether a transgendered women who transition after developing physiologically as a man for a decade different physiologically in a relevant manner from a biological woman such that allowing them to compete becomes something of a farce.

I think the article makes it pretty clear that the answer can be "yes".

A decade ago? There was a case where a bio man who identified as a woman competed in high school field hockey, and dominated the sport. People said "Its one person, in high school sports, who really cares?" The answer was "the other people who have to compete against and with him care, of course" but they were ignored. Too minor, doesn't matter.

So today it is a transgendered woman who for the first 22 years of her life was a biological male athlete who was good enough to compete at the higher levels of male athletics, and who after transitioning to womens sports immediately became by far the best athlete in their sport at their level. Is Lia Thompson a woman? I would answer "yes" for the purposes of how she should be treated outside of athletics. Inside the world of competitive college womens sports, I would note that whether she is a woman or not, she is definitely not playing on the same physiological playing field as non transgendered women.

This problem isn't going to go away. It is going to get worse, because why wouldn't it?

[Syt]

It's not like the definition of "women" is something that hasn't been under discussion for a while.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/08/caster-semenya-and-the-abnormal-olympic-body/496724/

Why Hyper-Masculine Women Are Scary, but Fish-Like Men Aren't

Most elite athletes are unusual in some way. So why does Caster Semenya alarm spectators more than Michael Phelps?

[The Brain]

Binary? Women's sports is, as the name implies, for women (whatever exactly that means, but it certainly doesn't include non-women). Non-women may come in all kinds of sexes, it doesn't affect women's sports.

I don't think we should be going by the implications from the name of the sport.  Sports were also named more than a century ago, and we've established that things from a century ago are not helpful here.  Most men's sports, if not all, actually do allow women to compete, so the name of the sport is actually not a good guide for 2021.

If you're fine with non-women competing in women's sports then what's the problem?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Is she a woman or not? Not a rhetorical question.

DNA will be pretty clear on that

But you forget that DNA is not clear in 0.00000000001% of cases so it shouldn't be used to determine sex of contestants or of anyone.

the exceptions to the rule do not invalidate the rule. So it should very well be used to determine the sex of contestants. It's even the only definitive way to determine the sex of anything.