Transgender MEGATHREAD

[Berkut]

I like how if someone noticed something that was anatomically TRUE, they were "feminizing" him in retrospect. I suppose the coroner who noticed he had a vagina was doing that as well.

Well the coroner didn't - the coroner ignored the fact that he had a vagina - and isn't that the right phrase given that people commented on it in retrospect.

The coroner most certainly did notice that it was a women, since that is the one who revealed that in fact it was a woman.

He may not have decided that meant much, but you don't know that those who remarked that in retrospect she had very little facial hair or a high voice did either. They were just noticing something factual.

[viper37]

There's a difference between 200kg six foot tall women and skinny ones with dwarvism too.

Do you think England's female football team could win against England's male football team?
Do you think an American footbal women's elite team could stand a chance against the best collegial american football players?

I've watched hockey.  A lot of hockey.  Women and men's game.  Only the American and Canadian teams are worth shit, but even there, there's no way these ladies could compete against junior players.  They're not fast, not strong enough.  And among the junior players, only 0.16% of them, end up in the NHL and not all of them get a full contract.

Where is the fairness in that?

In combat sports, we discriminate by body mass.  Between x and y kg, you fight in a category.  Between y and z kg, another category.

But here we are, saying it shouldn't matter at all if one of the girls is 50 pounds heavier than the other during a boxing match. There's a bit of hypocrisy with this point of view, don't you think?

[viper37]

I don't have a strong sense of how frequent and harmful false allegations that cis- girls are trans- are going to be with bans on trans athletes vs how frequent and harmful trans- girls participating is going to be to cis- girls in things like high school sports, but if we're looking at protecting children we should consider that as well, IMO.

Everything should be considered, and all false accusations should be severly reprimended.  One should not exclude the other.

How do we deal with intersex athletes?

Are there that many to begin with?

[Sheilbh]

The coroner most certainly did notice that it was a women, since that is the one who revealed that in fact it was a woman.

The coroner didn't:

James Allen was working for a London shipwright when he was killed by a falling piece of timber in 1829. He had been married to his wife, Abigail, for more than twenty years. The medical students who performed the autopsy declared Allen's body anatomically female, but the coroner continued to call the deceased 'he' because 'I considered it impossible for him to be a woman, as he had a wife.'

This may be a common language thing - coroners here (I think especially back then) are normally lawyers. But they're a type of judge who hear an inquest sometimes with a jury to determine the cause of death. Someone else does the autopsy and the coroner hears the evidence. So in this case the medical students did the autopsy and discovered Allen's biological sex - the coroner decided to disregard that because of the fact of Allen's marriage to a woman.

Edit: Looking it up the coroners inquest is there to decide who the deceased was and how, when and where they died - so this would probably have been an issue in deciding "who" the deceased was and the coroner decided they were James Allen.

He may not have decided that meant much, but you don't know that those who remarked that in retrospect she had very little facial hair or a high voice did either. They were just noticing something factual.

I'm just going from the article which says that the comments about faical hair or high voice were in retrospect given that I've not read the book

But also it strikes me as more likely that we'd have a record of individuals speaking to the press after the scandalous discovery of a local man being biologically female, rather than a prospective record about a sawyer on a shipyard in 1820s London.

[Josquius]

There's a difference between 200kg six foot tall women and skinny ones with dwarvism too.

Do you think England's female football team could win against England's male football team?
Do you think an American footbal women's elite team could stand a chance against the best collegial american football players?

I've watched hockey.  A lot of hockey.  Women and men's game.  Only the American and Canadian teams are worth shit, but even there, there's no way these ladies could compete against junior players.  They're not fast, not strong enough.  And among the junior players, only 0.16% of them, end up in the NHL and not all of them get a full contract.

Where is the fairness in that?

Whats with the completely irrelevant questions?
Nobody wants England men to play against England women.

In combat sports, we discriminate by body mass.  Between x and y kg, you fight in a category.  Between y and z kg, another category.

But here we are, saying it shouldn't matter at all if one of the girls is 50 pounds heavier than the other during a boxing match. There's a bit of hypocrisy with this point of view, don't you think?

Who says that?
Wasn't what we just talked about copying boxing in other sports rather than copying other sports in boxing?

[Berkut]

In combat sports, we discriminate by body mass.  Between x and y kg, you fight in a category.  Between y and z kg, another category.

But here we are, saying it shouldn't matter at all if one of the girls is 50 pounds heavier than the other during a boxing match. There's a bit of hypocrisy with this point of view, don't you think?

Who says that?
Wasn't what we just talked about copying boxing in other sports rather than copying other sports in boxing?

That still does not work.

a 5'8" 185lb man is not equivalent to a 5'8" 185lb women. Or pick your height and weight, it doesn't matter.

[Josquius]

In combat sports, we discriminate by body mass.  Between x and y kg, you fight in a category.  Between y and z kg, another category.

But here we are, saying it shouldn't matter at all if one of the girls is 50 pounds heavier than the other during a boxing match. There's a bit of hypocrisy with this point of view, don't you think?

Who says that?
Wasn't what we just talked about copying boxing in other sports rather than copying other sports in boxing?

That still does not work.

a 5'8" 185lb man is not equivalent to a 5'8" 185lb women. Or pick your height and weight, it doesn't matter.

Which I mentioned.
Deciding exactly what the factor you use to draw your category boundaries with just brings us back to square one.

[Berkut]

In combat sports, we discriminate by body mass.  Between x and y kg, you fight in a category.  Between y and z kg, another category.

But here we are, saying it shouldn't matter at all if one of the girls is 50 pounds heavier than the other during a boxing match. There's a bit of hypocrisy with this point of view, don't you think?

Who says that?
Wasn't what we just talked about copying boxing in other sports rather than copying other sports in boxing?

That still does not work.

a 5'8" 185lb man is not equivalent to a 5'8" 185lb women. Or pick your height and weight, it doesn't matter.

Which I mentioned.
Deciding exactly what the factor you use to draw your category boundaries with just brings us back to square one.

Hence why this is not a actual solution to a "problem" that barely actually exists.

You cannot have a category of people allowed to play a sport where the intent, the very purpose of defining such a category, is to allow women to play sports against other women, while pretending like there is no such thing as a woman that can be simply defined biologically.

We all know what womens sports is, and always has been. Don't change it.

Allow a process for those transitioning physically to allow them, when appropriate, to participate. It is the very definition of the case where the individual circumstances simply demand some kind of exception be made. It will happen very, very rarely. Make a general rule that applies 99.9% of the time, and then allow and define an exception process to handle the 0.1%.

[Josquius]

Hence why this is not a actual solution to a "problem" that barely actually exists.

You cannot have a category of people allowed to play a sport where the intent, the very purpose of defining such a category, is to allow women to play sports against other women, while pretending like there is no such thing as a woman that can be simply defined biologically.

So do so.
The people responsible for doing this have been trying and failing for decades.

We all know what womens sports is, and always has been. Don't change it.

It has changed many times over the years.
But agreed that we don't need to start introducing special laws just to exclude trans people.

[mongers]

The feral cat that's adopted us as it's new home is female, though it does spend a lot of time out at nights, isn't sterilised, but still hasn't had any kittens.

I'm fairly certain that this cat referred to as "she" is in fact male cat. All the other pet cats that have owned us have been female, so not sure what a boy cat looks like down below; but one thing I'm not gonna do is google for images of cat genitalia!

In this instance the notion of gender is rather fluid and at least here, a social construct. 

[Tamas]

The feral cat that's adopted us as it's new home is female, though it does spend a lot of time out at nights, isn't sterilised, but still hasn't had any kittens.

I'm fairly certain that this cat referred to as "she" is in fact male cat. All the other pet cats that have owned us have been female, so not sure what a boy cat looks like down below; but one thing I'm not gonna do is google for images of cat genitalia!

In this instance the notion of gender is rather fluid and at least here, a social construct. 

If he is an un-neutered adult male cat, the balls are hard to mistake for the female reproductive organ.

If she is a female and you want to keep it, I recommend sterilisation unless you want semi-annual trips to a shelter (or ending up with dozens of cats in short order).

Sex has no bearing on a cat's desire to be out and about at night, in my experience.

[Barrister]

The feral cat that's adopted us as it's new home is female, though it does spend a lot of time out at nights, isn't sterilised, but still hasn't had any kittens.

I'm fairly certain that this cat referred to as "she" is in fact male cat. All the other pet cats that have owned us have been female, so not sure what a boy cat looks like down below; but one thing I'm not gonna do is google for images of cat genitalia!

In this instance the notion of gender is rather fluid and at least here, a social construct. 

You can't normally see their penis unless they're, er, aroused (when it's bright red).

But they have a pair of furry little balls you can't miss.

[mongers]

The feral cat that's adopted us as it's new home is female, though it does spend a lot of time out at nights, isn't sterilised, but still hasn't had any kittens.

I'm fairly certain that this cat referred to as "she" is in fact male cat. All the other pet cats that have owned us have been female, so not sure what a boy cat looks like down below; but one thing I'm not gonna do is google for images of cat genitalia!

In this instance the notion of gender is rather fluid and at least here, a social construct. 

You can't normally see their penis unless they're, er, aroused (when it's bright red).

But they have a pair of furry little balls you can't miss.

Thank you very much and Tamas too, but again ...

I AM NOT GOING TO GO LOOKING FOR A CAT'S DANGELY BITS. 

[Barrister]

The feral cat that's adopted us as it's new home is female, though it does spend a lot of time out at nights, isn't sterilised, but still hasn't had any kittens.

I'm fairly certain that this cat referred to as "she" is in fact male cat. All the other pet cats that have owned us have been female, so not sure what a boy cat looks like down below; but one thing I'm not gonna do is google for images of cat genitalia!

In this instance the notion of gender is rather fluid and at least here, a social construct. 

You can't normally see their penis unless they're, er, aroused (when it's bright red).

But they have a pair of furry little balls you can't miss.

Thank you very much and Tamas too, but again ...

I AM NOT GOING TO GO LOOKING FOR A CAT'S DANGELY BITS. 

Okay, okay... I read you loud and clear.  You don't want to spend the effort to go looking.

So I'm here to help.  Here's a picture of cat testicles.

[Josquius]

That looks a lot like a pussy