What the left gets wrong about economics that annoys the shit out of me

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Yes, that is why they are all aligned behind Donald Trump. Because they are so concerned about making things worse.

I'm not sure what the people arrayed behind Trump are but I doubt they're conservatives. But then again, the word seems to be mean something else in the US, just like liberal.

At least, that's how it looks like as seen from this side of the pond.

[Barrister]

Yes, that is why they are all aligned behind Donald Trump. Because they are so concerned about making things worse.

I'm not sure what the people arrayed behind Trump are but I doubt they're conservatives. But then again, the word seems to be mean something else in the US, just like liberal.

At least, that's how it looks like as seen from this side of the pond.

I did try to specify "intellectually speaking at least", but it doesn't seem like Berkut's interested in a debate on the topic.

[Berkut]

Yes, that is why they are all aligned behind Donald Trump. Because they are so concerned about making things worse.

I'm not sure what the people arrayed behind Trump are but I doubt they're conservatives. But then again, the word seems to be mean something else in the US, just like liberal.

At least, that's how it looks like as seen from this side of the pond.

If "conservatives" cared about not making things worse, they would have aligned behind the Dems, and Trump would have lost by 25 million votes.

They don't care about that at all of course - they care about keeping their positions of privilege in society.

And yeah Beebs, I don't think there is much interesting debate around how "conservatives" care so much about "not making things worse". That story has been rather decisively disproven over the last 20-30 years overall, and most emphatically over the last 4 years.

They care about keeping the social structure where they have ingrained advantages over minorities and immigrants in place.

[Barrister]

Yes, that is why they are all aligned behind Donald Trump. Because they are so concerned about making things worse.

I'm not sure what the people arrayed behind Trump are but I doubt they're conservatives. But then again, the word seems to be mean something else in the US, just like liberal.

At least, that's how it looks like as seen from this side of the pond.

If "conservatives" cared about not making things worse, they would have aligned behind the Dems, and Trump would have lost by 25 million votes.

They don't care about that at all of course - they care about keeping their positions of privilege in society.

And yeah Beebs, I don't think there is much interesting debate around how "conservatives" care so much about "not making things worse". That story has been rather decisively disproven over the last 20-30 years overall, and most emphatically over the last 4 years.

They care about keeping the social structure where they have ingrained advantages over minorities and immigrants in place.

Fuck off Berkut.  I don't even live in your country.  I'm not her to be some kind of strawman for you to dunk on my positions that you attribute to me.

[Berkut]

Yes, that is why they are all aligned behind Donald Trump. Because they are so concerned about making things worse.

I'm not sure what the people arrayed behind Trump are but I doubt they're conservatives. But then again, the word seems to be mean something else in the US, just like liberal.

At least, that's how it looks like as seen from this side of the pond.

If "conservatives" cared about not making things worse, they would have aligned behind the Dems, and Trump would have lost by 25 million votes.

They don't care about that at all of course - they care about keeping their positions of privilege in society.

And yeah Beebs, I don't think there is much interesting debate around how "conservatives" care so much about "not making things worse". That story has been rather decisively disproven over the last 20-30 years overall, and most emphatically over the last 4 years.

They care about keeping the social structure where they have ingrained advantages over minorities and immigrants in place.

Fuck off Berkut.  I don't even live in your country.  I'm not her to be some kind of strawman for you to dunk on my positions that you attribute to me.

I did not attribute any positions to you at all.

You said something about what Conservatives stand for. I said that it is pretty clear that the vast vast bulk of self proclaimed conservatives clearly do not in fact care about that.

I did not say anything at all about what YOU believe. Only about what it is clear that most people who have, in the US, claimed to be "conservative" actually believe.

There is no way you can reconcile the idea that your core ideology is "avoid making things worse" with supporting Donald Trump. And the vast majority of people who call themselves "conservative" do just that.

[Solmyr]

I like how discussions of different ideologies here are pretty much the same as the ones in Disco Elysium.

[mongers]

The use of "some of the ..." be it right or left, might have helped the debate get along; the using a blanket "the left" or "the right" is accusative and doesn't give people not in the exact centre an honourable place to stand.   

[Zoupa]

The use of "some of the ..." be it right or left, might have helped the debate get along; the using a blanket "the left" or "the right" is accusative and doesn't give people not in the exact centre an honourable place to stand.

Indeed.

Then again centrists do love their tribe.

[Tonitrus]

I absolutely disagree that "way you are using [socialism] is just describing being a progressive. So it has no utility in that it definitionally has near perfect overlap with a common term already used and well understood, and one that is eplicitly relative."  The term "progressive" is probably fraught with more controversy over its meaning than "socialist" is.   Bernie Sanders and AOC uses it to describe their far-left policies, while Joe Biden and Pete Buttigieg use it to describe their center-left policies.  Teddy Roosevelt, a mainstream republican, considered himself a progressive.

I would argue that the real difference between a socialist and a progressive is that the socialist believes that the government should actually control the means of production in one or more significant sectors, while a progressive would pursue the same goal but using government as another participant in the market.

I think the things you don't like about the term progressive is exactly what I DO like about the term!

It encapsulates what unites the modern left, and the fact that former mainstream Republicans can reasonably be described as progressive illuminates just how fucked up current "mainstream" Republicans are that they consider the term an insult. I do think there is a difference between the Sanders/AOC wing of the left and the Biden/Buttigieg center, but it isn't that they are not both progressive. I do think it is around the idea of actual socialism, meaning more then just a debate about whether to spend 26% of 29% on social programs.

The "real difference" you cite I agree with, but nobody else seems to think so - they insist that socialism practically has nothing to do with the productive side of the equation. If you go back to my very first post, this is just the argument that I made. If socialist means anything real, it has to mean some kind of actual government role in managing production beyond just regulation (since, again, regulation is ubiquitous so does not differentiate).

The term you are looking for is "Democrat," not progressive.  If "progressive" just means people that want to make things better, then it applies to current Republicans as well, though their methods and desired end states differ as much from Biden as Biden's do from Sanders.

I would be more cynical then either of you.  I think many times "progressive" is used simply in place of "my ideas/beliefs are better (progressive) than your (regressive) ideas/beliefs".

[Admiral Yi]

The use of "some of the ..." be it right or left, might have helped the debate get along; the using a blanket "the left" or "the right" is accusative and doesn't give people not in the exact centre an honourable place to stand.

Indeed.

Then again centrists do love their tribe.

[Valmy]

The use of "some of the ..." be it right or left, might have helped the debate get along; the using a blanket "the left" or "the right" is accusative and doesn't give people not in the exact centre an honourable place to stand.

Indeed.

Then again centrists do love their tribe.

Nonsense. The Centrist People's Front would never associate with the People's Front of the Center.

[Berkut]

The use of "some of the ..." be it right or left, might have helped the debate get along; the using a blanket "the left" or "the right" is accusative and doesn't give people not in the exact centre an honourable place to stand.

Indeed.

Then again centrists do love their tribe.

I think Zoupa has been using the Tucker Carlson Guide to Political Arguments.

[Habbaku]

Definitely the case in the other thread...

[Zoupa]

Shoe, meet other foot.

[DGuller]

The foot is in the other mouth now.