Euro 2020/2021

[Jacob]

Okie-dokie.

What would you say gender is if not a deeply felt identity? Is it a biological truth? Or, as Tamas suggested, a simple choice?

I'll try to give you an answer after I play some golf.

I would also prioritize playing golf over having this languish discussion

(but I'm still interested in your answer)

[Valmy]

Yeah that sentence confuses me. I thought gender was this socially constructed thing, surely for something like that you do have a choice as to how seriously you identify with it.

But I don't know, these things are weird.

I'm not setting myself out to be an expert here, just stating my understanding. That said:

"Socially constructed" != "simple choice" or "trivial".

I don't recall saying those words. Just that your relationship with it probably varies from person to person a bit.

I mean, being an American is socially constructed, being a member of a First Nations tribe is socially constructed, being a Christian is a social construct, race is a social construct. All identities are essentially socially constructed. That doesn't mean they are not deeply felt or important, rather the opposite as history and human interactions show. I mean, I assume the fact that you're American, that you're white, that you're a man, that you're Texan, that you're married, that you're not a racist, and that you're an engineer are all pretty important to you in various ways even if they're all social constructs.

Absolutely and I would say exactly the same. I am many many different things and many different identities. I feel like I do have a choice which of those things I tightly grasp onto emotionally and which ones I don't. But ultimately society has assigned to me most of those things. You have things that just are assigned to you and you just kind of have to live with it vs things you strongly choose for yourself.

Like society says I am a Cancer because of my birthday, and I don't deny that I, in fact, am one. But I don't really care that I am. It is just a thing. Others may really take that astrology identity really seriously.

The challenge facing transgender individuals is that their sense of their gender does not align with the traditional view of society at large. In the past, typically, that resulted in society imposing its sense on trans people with a variety of different outcomes as a result (and typically not pleasant ones for the trans individuals in question). There may have been degrees of choice involved in some of those identities, but for others I'd expect there's not as much choice.

Yes I don't live under a rock. it is a choice though how much meaning you take from that.

I mean, next time you see a trans friend or acquaintance you could ask them how much of a choice they feel their gender is, vs something that is core to their identity (assuming you can find a decent way to ask). When I say gender is a deeply held identity as opposed to a simple choice people can make according to random whim, I'm reflecting what I've learned from trans people. I could've missed something along the way.

I would presume that different trans people have different relationships with it. Some it might just be something they have to deal with, like hey I am trans/genderfluid/whatever and that is just the way it is. Others it might be a central part of who they are. I don't think for everybody it is a deeply felt identity, though obviously once you are persecuted for something it often changes your relationship with it.

Edit: Probably why things like cults and nationalists and various groups like to cultivate a feeling of persecution because they know it will intensify that identity for their members.

[Jacob]

I don't recall saying those words. Just that your relationship with it probably varies from person to person a bit.

Didn't mean to suggest you were.

Absolutely and I would say exactly the same. I am many many different things and many different identities. I feel like I do have a choice which of those things I tightly grasp onto emotionally and which ones I don't. But ultimately society has assigned to me most of those things. You have things that just are assigned to you and you just kind of have to live with it vs things you strongly choose for yourself.

Like society says I am a Cancer because of my birthday, and I don't deny that I, in fact, am one. But I don't really care that I am. It is just a thing. Others may really take that astrology identity really seriously.

Exactly.

Gender is one of those things that society just assigns to you generally. It's not trivial (like your star sign), and it influences the major outlines of your life and how you interact with people on basically a minute to minute basis. If you disagree with that on a fundamntal level it's potentially going to be tough for you (and if you mildly disagree, then I suspect you might "just kind of live with it" because it may not be worth the battle).

Yes I don't live under a rock. it is a choice though how much meaning you take from that.

I know you don't live under a rock - just trying to lay out the complete line of my thinking including stuff that's probably pretty obvious.

I do think there's a limited range of choice with how much meaning you take from gender when weighed against what society's expectations are and your own sense is on the matter. I mean, obviously there are a number of people who don't feel particularly attached to either gender and so on, but I question how much it's a choice.

I guess to me "it's a choice" sounds about the same as saying "being gay is a choice" or "being straight is a choice" which I don't think matches most people's experiences.

I would presume that different trans people have different relationships with it. Some it might just be something they have to deal with, like hey I am trans/genderfluid/whatever and that is just the way it is. Others it might be a central part of who they are. I don't think for everybody it is a deeply felt identity, though obviously once you are persecuted for something it often changes your relationship with it.

Maybe the issue is that the meanings we assign to "deeply felt identity" doesn't match up. I'd expect that for the average person, their gender identity is deeply held (but probably rarely examined). I mean it's who we are. Most of us wouldn't particularly take to having our gender self-identification questioned in a serious way (joking is another matter, of course), whether it's cis, trans, or fluid.

[DGuller]

Oh and we also have preferred pronouns in our signatures.

It's like... if genders and thus pronouns are just social constructs and are equal, why is it such a big deal to avoid getting them wrong the first time? Lots of people are happy to guess my nationality and not one of them have got it right the first time, but neither them nor I mind the attempt.

I think we forgot the art of letting things slide, especially when slights are entirely innocent.  People misspell my first name in six different ways.  Many people by the middle of my second sentence ask me where I'm from.  The world is going to be a very tiresome place if conflicts are to be avoided entirely by the people doing the talking, with unlimited right to be offended on the part of the listener.

[garbon]

Oh and we also have preferred pronouns in our signatures.

It's like... if genders and thus pronouns are just social constructs and are equal, why is it such a big deal to avoid getting them wrong the first time? Lots of people are happy to guess my nationality and not one of them have got it right the first time, but neither them nor I mind the attempt.

I think we forgot the art of letting things slide, especially when slights are entirely innocent.  People misspell my first name in six different ways.  Many people by the middle of my second sentence ask me where I'm from.  The world is going to be a very tiresome place if conflicts are to be avoided entirely by the people doing the talking, with unlimited right to be offended on the part of the listener.

That's a lot from some people putting pronouns in their email signatures.

Also interesting how my post about cringe statement at work on race, led to the Languish anti-trans brigade showing up.

[Josquius]

Oh and we also have preferred pronouns in our signatures.

It's like... if genders and thus pronouns are just social constructs and are equal, why is it such a big deal to avoid getting them wrong the first time? Lots of people are happy to guess my nationality and not one of them have got it right the first time, but neither them nor I mind the attempt.

I think we forgot the art of letting things slide, especially when slights are entirely innocent.  People misspell my first name in six different ways.  Many people by the middle of my second sentence ask me where I'm from.  The world is going to be a very tiresome place if conflicts are to be avoided entirely by the people doing the talking, with unlimited right to be offended on the part of the listener.

Most people do let it slide though?
You see the transphobes posting videos of trans dick heads freaking out over being misgendered but for most it's not the end of the world and something to be simply corrected - it's only once you continue to call them a man after they've said they're women that the arse holery starts.

As I say with email it sounds logical completely independent of trans people existing.
Afterall if you get an email from Patricia Jones then does it really matter whether she looks obviously super feminine or is a very impassable trans woman? - obviously a woman from the name either way. In our land of remote working it's possible you never run into her in person at all.

At my work is an Indian woman with a name I'd normally firmly associate as being a man's name. For the longest time I didn't put together that this woman I'd seen around the office was the "guy" popping up in occasional email chains.

And if I had a penny for the number of times in Switzerland people referred to me by a vaguely similar sounding first name...

[Duque de Bragança]

Wrong thread to debate all things not related to the Euro 2020/2021 anyways. Not even linked to football in general.

[Sheilbh]

*Deletes draft post of Euro 2020 footballers as ACW generals*

[Jacob]

*Deletes draft post of Euro 2020 footballers as ACW generals*

[celedhring]

Saka being held by Chiellini instantly reminded me of Pikett's charge and there's no way you'll convince me that there's no clear historic parallel. 

[Duque de Bragança]

*Deletes draft post of Euro 2020 footballers as ACW generals*

I was expecting an English Civil War hijack but since Brits are hopelessly americanised, 51st State etc., you can't even rely on them anymore for British stuff. 

[Duque de Bragança]

This is what I get on my FB feed from Italians:

Sauce: unknown.

[Tamas]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/14/ticketless-fans-actions-at-wembley-terrifying-say-disabled-fans

Apparently a lot of England "fans" tried to get through the disabled entrances, at least one of them trying to grab the wheelchairs of one of the visitors to gain entry by "escorting them" but even worse there seem to had been a proper fight around the disabled visitors between the ticketless scum and the stewards.

One of the involved also mentioned it took him proving with photos that previous matches had plenty of unused disabled seating at Wembley before UEFA changed their "no tickets left" line to him and he could get a ticket for himself and his 15 years old son with cerebral palsy. I guess they were worried the camera might get sight of them while zooming in on an attractive female or something.

[Valmy]

Thinking back on this Euro, I think my biggest take away is that the English team might not be a total joke anymore. They might actually be one of the big boys to be taken seriously. But the possibility still exists this was just a Cinderella run we sometimes get like Greece in 2004. I guess Qatar will ultimately prove that one way or the other.

[Josquius]

I don't quite understand there. Disabled people were able to pay at the gate and some gits were trying to exploit this?