Italian Politics

[Crazy_Ivan80]

well, it's still Italy after all. Wouldn't be normal if everything went smooth.

[Sheilbh]

So, today was the first day of the legislature in Italy, and shenanigans already took place in the Senate, as Forza Italia abstained from voting the proposed Senate president candidate from FdI (Inazio Larussa, former minister in the Berlusconi governments of the early 00s and one of FdI's founders). When Larussa went to speak with Berlusconi (who is a senator) about why he didn't vote in the first round they apparently had a brief badmouthing. After several innefectual voting rounds, Larussa ended out being selected without FI's votes, but with some opposition votes in his favour to break out the stalemate.

And, which is attracting attention overseas at least, a collector of fascist memorabilia (middle name Benito), including a Mussolini bust. His dad was also a fascist party member and by the looks of it an early member of MSI.

But as you say already a minister because this is fundamentally the same coalition as Berlusconi's - it's just the balance of power is a little bit different.

I think it makes sense for Berlusconi and Meloni to have a little bit of a difficulty. From the outside it looks like she's a far canny operator than Salvini, so Berlusconi's probably making it clear he's still an operator too

[The Larch]

So, today was the first day of the legislature in Italy, and shenanigans already took place in the Senate, as Forza Italia abstained from voting the proposed Senate president candidate from FdI (Inazio Larussa, former minister in the Berlusconi governments of the early 00s and one of FdI's founders). When Larussa went to speak with Berlusconi (who is a senator) about why he didn't vote in the first round they apparently had a brief badmouthing. After several innefectual voting rounds, Larussa ended out being selected without FI's votes, but with some opposition votes in his favour to break out the stalemate.

And, which is attracting attention overseas at least, a collector of fascist memorabilia (middle name Benito), including a Mussolini bust. His dad was also a fascist party member and by the looks of it an early member of MSI.

But as you say already a minister because this is fundamentally the same coalition as Berlusconi's - it's just the balance of power is a little bit different.

I think it makes sense for Berlusconi and Meloni to have a little bit of a difficulty. From the outside it looks like she's a far canny operator than Salvini, so Berlusconi's probably making it clear he's still an operator too

Absolutely nobody in Italy will bat an eyelid because Larussa happens to own fascist memorabilia. He's a long time far right politician that happened to be the last president of Alleanza Nazionale, the post-fascist party of the first Berlusconi governments that ended up merging into Forza Italia, and his own father was a member of the Fascist party before the war, and one of the earliest members of the MSI after it.

That this is what is making headlines abroad is a very reductionist topic.

[Sheilbh]

Absolutely nobody in Italy will bat an eyelid because Larussa happens to own fascist memorabilia. He's a long time far right politician that happened to be the last president of Alleanza Nazionale, the post-fascist party of the first Berlusconi governments that ended up merging into Forza Italia, and his own father was a member of the Fascist party before the war, and one of the earliest members of the MSI after it.

That this is what is making headlines abroad is a very reductionist topic.

I don't know if I agree. That strand of politics has been mainstreamed/normalised in Italy - primarily by Berlusconi. Although from my understanding Meloni is a bit more of call back to the MSI roots, than Fini's Alleanza Nazionale and that she in part disagreed with Fini's "liberalisation".

But I don't think that has happened internationally. While Italians may be over it I think the exact nature of a "post-fascist" party in government is important and something the rest of the world will be interested in.

[The Larch]

Absolutely nobody in Italy will bat an eyelid because Larussa happens to own fascist memorabilia. He's a long time far right politician that happened to be the last president of Alleanza Nazionale, the post-fascist party of the first Berlusconi governments that ended up merging into Forza Italia, and his own father was a member of the Fascist party before the war, and one of the earliest members of the MSI after it.

That this is what is making headlines abroad is a very reductionist topic.

I don't know if I agree. That strand of politics has been mainstreamed/normalised in Italy - primarily by Berlusconi. Although from my understanding Meloni is a bit more of call back to the MSI roots, than Fini's Alleanza Nazionale and that she in part disagreed with Fini's "liberalisation".

But I don't think that has happened internationally. While Italians may be over it I think the exact nature of a "post-fascist" party in government is important and something the rest of the world will be interested in.

It was kind of normalised already by the time Berlusconi appeared on the political stage. Fini took the MSI (which had been participating in Italian politics since 1948, and actually peaked in the 70s) in the early 90s and started shedding its more overtly Fascist aspects, as well as attracting lots of former DC politicians and voters to end up morphing it into Alleanza Nazionale, which had much better election results that the MSI ever had. We can argue about what we mean by normalisation, though.

The thing is, post-fascists have already been part of Italian governments in the past, and nobody internationally seemed particulary bothered by that (in part because of Fini's efforts to make AN be as palatable as possible). As mentioned, Fini and AN were part of several Berlusconi-led governments in the 00s, and this particular guy Larussa was already an important figure by then, to the point of being a minister in several of these governments.

[Sheilbh]

It was kind of normalised already by the time Berlusconi appeared on the political stage. Fini took the MSI (which had been participating in Italian politics since 1948, and actually peaked in the 70s) in the early 90s and started shedding its more overtly Fascist aspects, as well as attracting lots of former DC politicians and voters to end up morphing it into Alleanza Nazionale, which had much better election results that the MSI ever had. We can argue about what we mean by normalisation, though.

Yeah - and I suppose whether there needs to be a de-normalisation now with FdI.

Cooperating or relying on MSI for supply and confidence caused riots and something like a "republican front" which forced new elections on DC in the 60s, because the party was explicitly (I think one of their leaders said this) "a fascist party for a democratic society". The leadership in those years were the dead enders who wentt to the Salo Republic and - from what I understand - that was almost a requirement in the early days. So that party existed and may have been partially normalised but are now, maybe, relevant again?

Fini transforms it in the Alleanza Nazionale and more explicitly distances themselves from fascism, racism etc. My understanding, which is why I think it's worth thinking about whether we should "de-normalise" this, is that Meloni and the FdI was in part a rejection of Fini. It was about saying that the MSI was the right tradition that they came from not AN. She also says that obviously they're not racists and that fascism is just a historical question etc. As I say from what I understand they are very mainstreamed and normalised in Italy, but it seems to me that you can't simultaneously have a line that "we're not fascists or racist" and simultaneously locate your tradition and identify your party's heroic moment at a point when they were explicitly fascist.

Not sure if I'm making sense because I'm struggling to think how I say it. For an Italian comparison - much as I love him and Eurocommunism - I think it's a bit like the criticism of Berlinguer and that moment of breaking with the USSR and moving to Eurocommunism but criticising the USSR only for its degenerative Stalinism phase/legacy and, from what I understand, Lenin was still untouchable in PCI theory (although not really a practical model).

The thing is, post-fascists have already been part of Italian governments in the past, and nobody internationally seemed particulary bothered by that (in part because of Fini's efforts to make AN be as palatable as possible). As mentioned, Fini and AN were part of several Berlusconi-led governments in the 00s, and this particular guy Larussa was already an important figure by then, to the point of being a minister in several of these governments.

Yeah, but also they've not led them.

There's going to be a lot more coverage of them leading the right than when they were a junior coalition partner winning 15% of the vote. I'm not sure why but I think there was far more interest and coverage internationally of Lega Nord in Berlusconi's government - perhaps because of the separatist element? Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like I read/heard a lot about Lega Nord and AN were almost an aside?

[The Larch]

Cooperating or relying on MSI for supply and confidence caused riots and something like a "republican front" which forced new elections on DC in the 60s, because the party was explicitly (I think one of their leaders said this) "a fascist party for a democratic society".

MSI relevance ebbed and flowed in the post war era. It started out being a relatively fringe party, but slowly gained relevance during the 50s to the point, as you say, of being the only support of the (extremely short lived) DC Tambroni cabinet, which actually collapsed because of it (as you say, riots took place nation wide because of the MSI's support for the government).

That was the culmination and ultimate failure of the MSI's "inserimento" strategy, which had as its goal to recover political power (they had already been cooperating in some local and regional arenas with the DC with the objective of keeping the Communist Party out of power, that was I think their first big foray into national politics). When the Tambroni cabinet collapsed the center left eventually won the elections shortly afterwards and the MSI spiralled downwards in support until they recovered in the 70s.

The leadership in those years were the dead enders who wentt to the Salo Republic and - from what I understand - that was almost a requirement in the early days.

Don't know about that, the MSI leader of that time, Michelini, was not part of the Salò Republic (others that followed him, mainly Giorgio Almirante, were indeed former Salò-ers).

Fini transforms it in the Alleanza Nazionale and more explicitly distances themselves from fascism, racism etc. My understanding, which is why I think it's worth thinking about whether we should "de-normalise" this, is that Meloni and the FdI was in part a rejection of Fini. It was about saying that the MSI was the right tradition that they came from not AN.

AFAIK (FdI came into existance long after my time in the country), FdI were created not as a reaction against Fini turning the MSI into AN, but as a reaction to AN merging into Forza Italia, as they felt it deprived them of a proper voice. For what I've read many of the initial FdI founders were former AN-ers (like Larussa). Meloni at that time was a relatively minor figure, although she had been a junior minister in one of the last Berlusconi cabinets, IIRC.

Yeah, but also they've not led them.

Agreed, that's the main difference, that now they're coalition leaders rather than junior partners.

There's going to be a lot more coverage of them leading the right than when they were a junior coalition partner winning 15% of the vote. I'm not sure why but I think there was far more interest and coverage internationally of Lega Nord in Berlusconi's government - perhaps because of the separatist element? Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like I read/heard a lot about Lega Nord and AN were almost an aside?

The reason is twofold, I think. On the one hand, as was previously mentioned, AN had been thoroughly sanitized of its most strident fascist trappings, and was a relatively quiet partner. On the other hand, the Lega were two things, one, former separatists, as well as a relatively new flavour in Italian politics, and two, extremely strident in their antics.

[The Larch]

Apparently the relations between FdI and FI are getting worse and worse by the moment, now with audios  of Berlusconi being leaked in which he praises Putin, badmouthes Zelensky, justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine and claims that the West has no true leaders at the moment. Meloni has stated that she wants a government with no dissent on this topic.

So, maybe having an excentric 86 y.o. at the head of your party is not a great idea.

[Sheilbh]

Also - I hold no truck with Meloni - but hard to see the stuff Berlusconi's said about Meloni ("patronising" etc) as anything but an old-fashioned sexist.

Especially as from what I understand the root of the issue is that she won't let FI get the Ministry of Justice which is, inevitably, a priority for Berlusconi.

[The Larch]

There's apparently a non trivial chance of FI splitting over this in two groups, an anti-Berlusconi one that would join the govenrment and a pro-Berlusconi one that would be kept out of it.

[Jacob]

So apparently Meloni has stated that Italy is a firm supporter of NATO, and if Berlusconi doesn't like it he won't be part of the government - even if it means not forming a government.

[Sheilbh]

So apparently Meloni has stated that Italy is a firm supporter of NATO, and if Berlusconi doesn't like it he won't be part of the government - even if it means not forming a government.

Yeah her and the FdI are probably the most pro-NATO/Atlanticist part of the right coalition.

In part I think it's historical - my understanding is that MSI/post-fascists in Italy were always very Atlanticist because anti-Communism. But also, as I say, I think her strategy is going to be the early Orban playbook - don't alarm Italy's international partners, but ramp up the racism and tools of authoritarianism (eg move to a presidential system).

[The Larch]

So, the Meloni government has finally been formed and confirmed by Parliament. All the big, outward-looking jobs seem to have been taken by very orthodox politicians, while the firebrands seem to have been placed in more internal-facing positions. Thus, I wouldn't expect this particular government to create headaches internationally, but might create many for the Italians themselves.

In her acceptance speech Meloni has confirmed Italy's stalwart support for the EU, NATO and Ukraine, as well as reneging once again from fascism to the point of claiming that she personally never had any sympathy for fascism (doubtful for someone who at 15 joined the youth wing of the MSI, but whatever). She has, as well, claimed that they won't change Italy's abortion law, which was a big concern with this government. We can expect the usual hardline approach to inmigration that the League already championed during their time in government. A tougher approach to welfare is also expected, as well as some kind of pro-natalist campaign. Their main objective, and one I doubt they'll achieve, will be trying to move Italy to a more presidentialist model.

In the final horse trading for cabinet positions Berlusconi seems to have lost the struggle with Meloni, as it'll be FdI the ones that will keep the Justice portfolio. Both FI and Lega wil have one VP each, positions that will be taken by former EU commissioner Antonio Tajani from FI (who will also be foreign affairs minister) and by Salvini (also minister for infrastructure, a much more minor position than the Interior ministry that he ambitioned but was finally kept away from).

Besides a sprinkling of ideological name changes for the ministries (Education becomes Education & Merit, Ecological Transition becomes Environment & Energy Security, Agriculture becomes Agriculture & Food Sovereignty, Economical Development becomes Business & Made in Italy, and the departments for Family and Equal Opportunities get merged into Family, Natality & Equal Opportunities), the most controversial figure appointed to the cabinet seems to be one of the Ministers without portfolio, Eugenia Maria Roccella. She will head the aforementioned Ministry of Family, Natality & Equal Opportunities. Mrs. Roccella is the daughter of one of the founders of the Italian Radical Party and his feminist painter wife, and was a feminist activist back in the 70s, campaigning and authoring a book on abortion rights. She then left politics and reappeared in the 90s, reneging from her Radical past, and having become a champion for the traditional, catholic family, to the point of being one of the promoters of the "Family Day", an annual demonstration of catholic organisations against LGBTQ rights. Berlusconi recruited her into FI in 2008 and she held a couple of lower profile positions in welfare and social affairs. Since then she jumped into a series of splinter right wing parties until arriving to FdI this year. She is against abortion, IV fertilization, surrogacy, LGBTQ rights in general and same-sex unions in particular, and euthanasia. A very real target for her might be bringing down Italy's 2016 law allowing same sex unions, which I think would make Italy the first country in the world to backtrack on that.

[Valmy]

A very real target for her might be bringing down Italy's 2016 law allowing same sex unions, which I think would make Italy the first country in the world to backtrack on that.

I am glad Italy can test that out for the United States so we have a model for when we do the same 

[Duque de Bragança]

A very real target for her might be bringing down Italy's 2016 law allowing same sex unions, which I think would make Italy the first country in the world to backtrack on that.

I am glad Italy can test that out for the United States so we have a model for when we do even worse

Fixed! See Berlusconi vs Trump.