Quo Vadis GOP?

[Valmy]

I was going to post that to.  Are there enough Americans left who are horrified by this to make a difference during the next Presidential election?

People have been talking like this since 1993. I think it just gets lost in the noise now...also you cannot imagine the immense power of the culture war. You can pretty much justify anything, by any means necessary, with the culture war. It is insane and you have to understand that context to get why rhetoric like this just gets a shrug from lots of voters.

Cops were killed and injured in that riot. I thought police lives mattered.

[The Minsky Moment]

(5) the term "domestic terrorism" means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States;

18 USC 2331

[Oexmelin]

Sure, culture wars.

But the right-wing nuts and fascists think their America is threatened, and they show up. They issue threat. They are present at school board meetings. They harass their officials.

Their opponents know that America is threatened, and they... do what exactly?

[garbon]

Sure, culture wars.

But the right-wing nuts and fascists think their America is threatened, and they show up. They issue threat. They are present at school board meetings. They harass their officials.

Their opponents know that America is threatened, and they... do what exactly?

I'm not sure how helpful it would be if I started issuing threats or showed up at school board meetings in red states.

[Oexmelin]

What would you rather do?

[garbon]

What would you rather do?

Recognize that becoming the enemy isn't going to help preserve American democracy.

[Oexmelin]

Sure. And what does that mean, practically?

[saskganesh]

Sure. And what does that mean, practically?

Following process, making fair laws, reading and defending the Constitution. Maintaining a level of civility in discourse and defending civic norms. Positive engagement. Recognise that while the goals of the opposition are crazy, nihilistic and dangerous, many of the grievances are very real and valid and need to be addressed. Work to build a better society for everyone.

It's not sexy and may, in the end, not work out.

[Oexmelin]

Following process, making fair laws, reading and defending the Constitution. Maintaining a level of civility in discourse and defending civic norms. Positive engagement. Recognise that while the goals of the opposition are crazy, nihilistic and dangerous, many of the grievances are very real and valid and need to be addressed. Work to build a better society for everyone.

I am sorry, but that doesn't mean anything. What is positive engagement? What does garbon reading the Constitution achieve? What does acknowledging grievances actually does in the face of current Republican fascism?

The solutions of civility are wonderful, but you are opposing a practical situation with an ethical stance - and an ethical stance that works well in arenas of respectful engagement and measured settings. This is no longer where the US are. Republican activist are exerting continuous pressure towards all sorts of elected official. They are subverting existing institution, which means that continuous (and somewhat apathetic) deference to them will bite people in the ass when they will be mobilized against political opponents. Reading the Constitution and nodding gravely at legitimate grievances will not do anything to fight this sort of thing.

[jimmy olsen]

We need to play hardball when they play hardball. Like with gerrymandering. Redistricting has been going surprisingly well for the Dems so far.

[DGuller]

We need to play hardball when they play hardball. Like with gerrymandering. Redistricting has been going surprisingly well for the Dems so far.

I think we have to play hardball sometimes.  Redistricting is a perfect example:  the country would be better off without it, but it would be worst off if only GOP did it and Democrats ceded seats to gain high moral ground.  It's unfortunate fact that many regard lack of willingness to unilaterally disarm as hypocrisy, but we'll just have to live with their stupidity the best we can.

Where we shouldn't play hardball is with nuance.  Yes, destroying nuance worked for GOP, but that's the kind of thing that works for authoritarians and really hurts the non-authoritarians.  That's not choosing ideals over pragmatism, that's just choosing the tactic that fits our mindset.  It's also kind of our reason for existing, otherwise we'll just be defined by what we're opposed to.

[garbon]

Sure. And what does that mean, practically?

Isn't it inherently obvious? If we turn to those same mob mentality methods, we may just be complicit in further undermining American democracy. Similar to the people who just want Trump and all his cronies just immediately thrown into prison as if that make a substantative, positive change...rather than just the obverse of 'Lock her up.'

From your question to sask, I thing the below link is a good starting point on things that an individual can work to do to shore up democratic norms.

https://terikanefield.com/things-to-do/

Of course, many of those won't matter locally in a solid blue state beyond I supposed making sure to expunge remaining Republicans  that might be currently elected to the House of Representatives. But even though, high chance that isn't your local rep.

When I first came across that list, I was struck by how important it'll be to not simply adapt the petulant tactics of the Right as effectively doing those things in the places where it'll make a difference necessitates either: a) moving to one of those Red cities/counties/states and/or b) engaging with others living in those areas to drive democratic change. Both routes will require significant effort and so perhaps not as immediately emotionally gratifying as making threats and intimidating elected officials.

[Oexmelin]

engaging with others living in those areas to drive democratic change. Both routes will require significant effort and so perhaps not as immediately emotionally gratifying as making threats and intimidating elected officials.

I was not suggesting issuing threats. I was simply saying that this is where things are, and that the right has been mobilizing, on the ground, for a long time. There is shockingly very little support, even of the symbolic kind, going towards those who do the right thing. Very few people on the left show up to defend their officials and drown out the crazies, including in places where there is far from unanimity, and very few people have actually engaged, despite four years of Trump, and the promise of more, with a much more sinister bend. Even if you live in a solidly blue state, there are out-of-state volunteers for a variety of tasks, and even in solidly blue states, you don't have far to go to get in places that are Republican, either at the state-level or even at the national level (upstate New York, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Maine, many counties of California, etc.). There are also many national representatives who are scared, or meek, and would benefit from being told how absolutely paramount certain measures, or investigations, are, that should be dealt with immediately. There are similarly a lot of low-profile national Democrats who need to be reminded that the threat goes beyond their good personal relationships with their Republican colleagues. The list you posted is good, but it moves quickly from the really important, to the quite ethereal.

I think complacency towards the morality of one's own spectator stance, a certain idea that political activism is beneath one, and a certain dose of fatalism are the real "feel-good" gratification.

[crazy canuck]

I was going to post that to.  Are there enough Americans left who are horrified by this to make a difference during the next Presidential election?

People have been talking like this since 1993. I think it just gets lost in the noise now...also you cannot imagine the immense power of the culture war. You can pretty much justify anything, by any means necessary, with the culture war. It is insane and you have to understand that context to get why rhetoric like this just gets a shrug from lots of voters.

Cops were killed and injured in that riot. I thought police lives mattered.

I understand how there can be strong views on social issues - particularly in a country with deeply held religious views like yours. But that seems a poor explanation for a main political party embracing fascism and rejecting liberal democratic values which recently were celebrated as winning the ideological fight with communism.

[garbon]

I was going to post that to.  Are there enough Americans left who are horrified by this to make a difference during the next Presidential election?

People have been talking like this since 1993. I think it just gets lost in the noise now...also you cannot imagine the immense power of the culture war. You can pretty much justify anything, by any means necessary, with the culture war. It is insane and you have to understand that context to get why rhetoric like this just gets a shrug from lots of voters.

Cops were killed and injured in that riot. I thought police lives mattered.

I understand how there can be strong views on social issues - particularly in a country with deeply held religious views like yours. But that seems a poor explanation for a main political party embracing fascism and rejecting liberal democratic values which recently were celebrated as winning the ideological fight with communism.

Yeah I would say a pretty recent thing that one side would say its okay for its supporters to attack the capitol.