Quo Vadis GOP?

[The Minsky Moment]

Yeah BB has it.  This isn't about "new directions" of the party.  Stefanik is a RINO in a MAGA hat.

The only direction at issue is how far up Trump's ass you are willing to go before you gag.  Cheney won't go there but Graham and Stenfanik are willing to go all the way.

[Berkut]

Berkut, don't make perfect the enemy of the good.

Yes, I'd like al GOP politicians to take a stand against the Big Lie.  But instead they've all gone silent on the topic, or are furiously promoting it.  Cheney is the only one vocally reminding people that the former guy lost fair and square.

And at real personal cost.  She's lost her leadership position and is almost certain to be facing a vigorous primary challenge next year.

I'm not. Obviously it is better that she takes a late stand on principle then never taking a stand at all.

But I contrast her with say McCain or even Romney, who have taken that stand long ago.

Cheney had a DIRECT hand in creating the very monster that is now chewing her up and bafing her out.

I am simply noting that I have zero sympathy with her personally. She is the victim of something she was more than happy to exploit in the crassest and most bigoted manner herself when it suited her.

[viper37]

Where were those principles four years ago? Five years ago?

The GOP has become so poisoned that someone EVENTUALLY taking a principled stand on something as basic as respect for democracy is seen as some kind of incredibly brave and principled move?

If everyone takes a shit on the floor, one person declining is not really anything to find all that amazing. What is amazing is that everyone else went along with it.

I don't know... should we shit on Von Stauffenberg because of fought for the Nazis during so long before staging a coup?  should we admire him for staging a coup in 1944?

Honestly, to this day, I'm still convinced he did it because Germany was losing the war by then, with moral considerations coming third after the preservation of his class' priviledges.  However, he did try something while so many others did not.
I see Cheney, and other Republicans like her in the same light.  They all supported Trump in the beginning, then they took a stand when they had nothing more to lose.  I think Cheney sees that Trump will hurt the GOP's chances in the long run, and that's why she's acting that way.  But maybe I totally misjudge her.

[Berkut]

Where were those principles four years ago? Five years ago?

The GOP has become so poisoned that someone EVENTUALLY taking a principled stand on something as basic as respect for democracy is seen as some kind of incredibly brave and principled move?

If everyone takes a shit on the floor, one person declining is not really anything to find all that amazing. What is amazing is that everyone else went along with it.

I don't know... should we shit on Von Stauffenberg because of fought for the Nazis during so long before staging a coup?  should we admire him for staging a coup in 1944?

Honestly, to this day, I'm still convinced he did it because Germany was losing the war by then, with moral considerations coming third after the preservation of his class' priviledges.  However, he did try something while so many others did not.
I see Cheney, and other Republicans like her in the same light.  They all supported Trump in the beginning, then they took a stand when they had nothing more to lose.  I think Cheney sees that Trump will hurt the GOP's chances in the long run, and that's why she's acting that way.  But maybe I totally misjudge her.

Let me check....yep, definitely lacking any sympathy for von Stauffenberg as well.

Actually... that is a bit different. IIRC, he was actually involved in plots to get rid of Hitler pretty much the entire time, right? It was just 1944 before one of them actually came off. Didn't they try to blow up his plane in 1941?

Anyway, I don't think Stauffenberg had any significant role in creating the Nazi state, even if he did profit from it.

Cheney definitely had a significant role in creating the modern GOP. She was not some lackey junior officer watching it all unfold in horror who eventually risked their life to try to stop it.

[Syt]

[Valmy]

Cancel culture? In the GOP? No WAI!!!

[Tonitrus]

That dude is almost like the living personification of Bob Roberts.

(in other words, a complete scummy worm)

[Eddie Teach]

And throw in one of the most pretentious names in politics.

[viper37]

Actually... that is a bit different. IIRC, he was actually involved in plots to get rid of Hitler pretty much the entire time, right? It was just 1944 before one of them actually came off. Didn't they try to blow up his plane in 1941?

He maintained contact with people who were plotting against Hitler but always refused to be part of any plot until 1943-44, after he was injured and started recovering, and he took a much more active role after June '44.

he wasn't directly involved with the Nazis (unlike, say, Himmler), but he supported Hitler, he was glad he took power and he favored German colonization of Poland.

[grumbler]

I don't know... should we shit on Von Stauffenberg because of fought for the Nazis during so long before staging a coup?  should we admire him for staging a coup in 1944?

Honestly, to this day, I'm still convinced he did it because Germany was losing the war by then, with moral considerations coming third after the preservation of his class' priviledges.  However, he did try something while so many others did not.

I dunno... should we shit on Hitler because he killed six million Jews before deciding to try to kill Hitler?  Should we admire him for killing Hitler in 1945?

[Barrister]

I don't know... should we shit on Von Stauffenberg because of fought for the Nazis during so long before staging a coup?  should we admire him for staging a coup in 1944?

Honestly, to this day, I'm still convinced he did it because Germany was losing the war by then, with moral considerations coming third after the preservation of his class' priviledges.  However, he did try something while so many others did not.

I dunno... should we shit on Hitler because he killed six million Jews before deciding to try to kill Hitler?  Should we admire him for killing Hitler in 1945?

If Hitler had killed himself out of remorse for killing all those Jews it would have made for a fascinating character study, and probably would have had just a tiny bit of sympathy for the man.

But instead he killed himself because he didn't want to get captured by the allies or russians.  So fuck that guy.

[The Brain]

The July 20 guys had no problem with Hitler waging aggressive war of ethnic annihiliation. Their only problem with Hitler was that he was losing that war. That being said there are still some differences between present day US and Nazi Germany.

[alfred russel]

Graham is the case that shows you what this is all about.

Lindsey Graham has broken from Trump from time to time.  He's on record saying mean things about Trump.  He voted to certify the election.  But now, right now, he sucks up to Trump.  And that's all Trump really wants.

Liz Cheney has a long history of backing Trump.  She's voted with Trump repeatedly.  But now, right now, she won't lie to defend Trump's baseless claims.  Which apparently means she has to go.

Nah.

Liz Cheney was going to survive her vote on Trump/the election results. Go check out her twitter feed: the two most common topics are foreign policy related stuff on which she has a Bush/Cheney orientation regarding, and January 6 / election fraud related stuff. She explicitly called out 12 republicans that voted against honoring capital police for 1/6.

While that may be principled, it is also political seppuku. She is elected by the GOP caucus. She isn't going to keep a leadership position if she is constantly bringing up a previous vote where she went against most of the caucus, and is publicly criticizing her own members.

[Habbaku]

The July 20 guys had no problem with Hitler waging aggressive war of ethnic annihiliation. Their only problem with Hitler was that he was losing that war. That being said there are still some differences between present day US and Nazi Germany.

This is not true of all the July 20 plotters and does a huge disservice to those that were committed to toppling Hitler far before the war was lost.

[Berkut]

Actually... that is a bit different. IIRC, he was actually involved in plots to get rid of Hitler pretty much the entire time, right? It was just 1944 before one of them actually came off. Didn't they try to blow up his plane in 1941?

He maintained contact with people who were plotting against Hitler but always refused to be part of any plot until 1943-44, after he was injured and started recovering, and he took a much more active role after June '44.

he wasn't directly involved with the Nazis (unlike, say, Himmler), but he supported Hitler, he was glad he took power and he favored German colonization of Poland.

OK, then I am quite content not feeling much, if any, sympathy for Stauffenberg either.