US Election Week 2020

[alfred russel]

Both Republican Senate candidates in Georgia have said they will object to the electoral vote submission. What good is acting outraged going to serve? I guess we will have an idea this evening if their calculations are correct, but it seems they have calculated it is to their advantage to do so. They think the consequence of their behavior will be election to the US Senate - I presume well paid consultants told them this. People that were never going to vote for them anyway acting outraged won't solve that.

PRetty sure the consultants told them that saying Georgia's election was illegitimate would hurt them - but that breaking with Trump would hurt them more.

You say potato, I say potato. (I guess the different pronunciations don't come through well in text)

[Oexmelin]

I don't follow your logic here.  Republican officials are debunking allegations of fraud, but people still believe there was widespread fraud.  You say if they had started earlier, before the allegations of fraud were made, people would have changed their minds?

I am saying that these Republicans were happy to let the whole discourse about fraud flourish as long as it allowed to score cheap political points, and that whatever they do now is too late. It has undermined American democracy and their fact-based, meek interventions have purposefully lost their power. I do not share ET's optimism that most people are convinced by facts and truth. Truth is being rationalized a posteriori. The most admirable proof of it is that it is Republicans who are pushing the narrative of fraud while being in the process of attempting to commit one.

I am saying Democrats have done essentially nothing to prepare for what was telegraphed years ago about Trump's rhetoric and practice, and have yielded the terrain of "voter fraud" to Republicans and conspiracy theorists. They have indeed waited for every line to be crossed before actually reacting very weakly, in the vain hopes that facts and institutions would do the job automatically for them, at the moment of transgression. It has always put them in the position of reacting to things, which perversely enough, validates the concerns of radical Republicans. I think it's a very poor reading of current politics.

*Of course* allegations of fraud are full of shit. That was a given four years ago, and it is a given now. It was a political talking point that had taken deep roots within the Republican party. You don't wait to prepare against that rhetorical weapon until after the election when it's conclusively proven that there was no fraud - just in case there would be a handful of cases of fraud.

Trumpism hasn't been crushed. It hasn't been conclusively repudiated. It has suffered a setback. It's not even sure that Democrats will win the Georgia senators. Nothing that I am seeing right now about the reaction to these last few weeks is giving me much hope for the next few years. It's going to be a long, protracted battle and Trump has normalized so much transgressions already. I mean, FFS, former officials felt the need to intervene publicly to warn against using the military in an electoral battle. Would you ever have thought this would happen, ten years ago?

[crazy canuck]

Precisely. Which is why I say it doesn't matter. You now have a substantial body of Americans who will forever believe that the elections were stolen through fraud by the Democratic party; that these Republicans are doing their duty to the Constitution - because that is the narrative being pushed; that the President is merely trying to restore what has, in face, truly happened. Now, every attempt at showing how, in fact, it is Trump who is attempting a coup, is received as him actually trying to prevent the real coup by the Deep state; that his attempts, and Republicans attempts at disenfranchisement are actually to preserve the voice of Americans.   

It is too late because people waited for the thing to happen in order to fight the narrative. Trump has been telegraphing his behavior in these current moments four years ago. The time to prepare for this sort of manoeuvre was then, not now. Now, it's too late. Trump may not get away with it - as in, he may yet be removed (and the fact that many feel the need to use that conditional ought to be utterly frightening). But illiberal Republicans will not be going away, and they have their base, and it is substantial. That base is functioning just like their equivalents are in Hungary, believing themselves the true defenders of what they are actively undermining.

I don't follow your logic here.  Republican officials are debunking allegations of fraud, but people still believe there was widespread fraud.  You say if they had started earlier, before the allegations of fraud were made, people would have changed their minds?

The thesis that if the Republicans had called bullshit on the past allegations of fraud then the current allegations of fraud would have less traction is not that hard to follow.

The difficultly you may be having is that it is fantasy to suggest that the GOP en mass would ever do such a thing.

[The Minsky Moment]

Would you ever have thought this would happen, ten years ago?

When was the last time anyone cared or noticed what the hell happens at the joint session to count the electoral votes?  The mere fact that the meeting is remotely newsworthy is itself a bad sign for the stability of the system going forward.  When the routine plumbing of a democratic system becomes a contested choke point for partisan fighting, that is not a healthy situation.

[Oexmelin]

Exactly.

I know I sound like a broken record, but you all really must get involved - and deeply involved - in the political process in the US, and not pin your hopes on some unforeseen savior, or some amazing new political leader. Involve your friends and relatives, too. Yes, it's going to be boring, and uncomfortable, and clearly you'll have to deal with people I am sure you'll feel are morons, but there is no easy way around it. Ask your representatives to be accountable, at all levels. Follow local news stories that don't get picked up by national media: people can build a lot of credibility by being invested in local stories, and it is on that basis of trust that one can make inroads into the propaganda bunker of Trumpism.

[viper37]

Precisely. Which is why I say it doesn't matter. You now have a substantial body of Americans who will forever believe that the elections were stolen through fraud by the Democratic party; that these Republicans are doing their duty to the Constitution - because that is the narrative being pushed; that the President is merely trying to restore what has, in face, truly happened. Now, every attempt at showing how, in fact, it is Trump who is attempting a coup, is received as him actually trying to prevent the real coup by the Deep state; that his attempts, and Republicans attempts at disenfranchisement are actually to preserve the voice of Americans.   

It is too late because people waited for the thing to happen in order to fight the narrative. Trump has been telegraphing his behavior in these current moments four years ago. The time to prepare for this sort of manoeuvre was then, not now. Now, it's too late. Trump may not get away with it - as in, he may yet be removed (and the fact that many feel the need to use that conditional ought to be utterly frightening). But illiberal Republicans will not be going away, and they have their base, and it is substantial. That base is functioning just like their equivalents are in Hungary, believing themselves the true defenders of what they are actively undermining.

It's funny, when you think about it.
These Republicans are deeply concerned about the rise of socialism in America.
Then they turn around and use the same fucking narrative and techniques as Chavez&Maduro.

[The Minsky Moment]

Funny fact.
One of Trump's lawyer-lobbyists gurus is Cleta Mitchell of Foley & Lardner. She was on the infamous phone call with Raffensperger.

Foley and Lardner signed a 12 million dollar deal to represent the Maduro regime; they eventually dropped them as a client due to the PR fallout.

[DGuller]

I'm starting to think that some lawyers would take on anyone as a client for a big enough fee.

[FunkMonk]

After following the Georgia runoffs for approximately zero days I can confidently say that the winners will be

[crazy canuck]

I'm starting to think that some lawyers would take on anyone as a client for a big enough fee.

Reminded me of our Canon of Ethics which, in part, requires: "No client is entitled to receive, nor should any lawyer render any service or advice involving disloyalty to the state or disrespect for judicial office, or the corruption of any persons exercising a public or private trust, or deception or betrayal of the public."

I wonder if Trump's lawyer is subject to a similar obligation.

[HisMajestyBOB]

I'm starting to think that some lawyers would take on anyone as a client for a big enough fee.

The issue with taking Trump as a client isn't just morals. He stiffs everyone he hires. But maybe Cleta Mitchell is working pro bono.

[Razgovory]

Maybe she is working pro malus instead.

[Sophie Scholl]

"Republican majority of the Pennsylvania State Senate just removed (Lieutenant Governor) John Fetterman from the chamber. President Pro Temp Corman is presiding instead.  Fetterman refused to recognize a motion that would have prevented a duly elected Democratic senator, Nicole Ziccarelli, from being sworn in." They succeeded in their effort in denying, not even delaying, the swearing in of the state senator in question leaving their district with no representation. The PA State Supreme Court ruled on the issue which gave the very close victory to the Democratic nominee. The Republicans have decided they will not accept this and have turned to the Federal Court system which, as far as I can tell, has no jurisdiction/ability to overturn the State Supreme Court decision. Another dangerous precedent set.
https://twitter.com/abgutman/status/1346519659005284353
https://www.inquirer.com/politics/election/spl/jim-brewster-pennsylvania-senate-gop-refuse-to-seat-nicole-ziccarelli-20210104.html

[Admiral Yi]

I am saying that these Republicans were happy to let the whole discourse about fraud flourish as long as it allowed to score cheap political points, and that whatever they do now is too late. It has undermined American democracy and their fact-based, meek interventions have purposefully lost their power. I do not share ET's optimism that most people are convinced by facts and truth. Truth is being rationalized a posteriori. The most admirable proof of it is that it is Republicans who are pushing the narrative of fraud while being in the process of attempting to commit one.

I am saying Democrats have done essentially nothing to prepare for what was telegraphed years ago about Trump's rhetoric and practice, and have yielded the terrain of "voter fraud" to Republicans and conspiracy theorists. They have indeed waited for every line to be crossed before actually reacting very weakly, in the vain hopes that facts and institutions would do the job automatically for them, at the moment of transgression. It has always put them in the position of reacting to things, which perversely enough, validates the concerns of radical Republicans. I think it's a very poor reading of current politics.

*Of course* allegations of fraud are full of shit. That was a given four years ago, and it is a given now. It was a political talking point that had taken deep roots within the Republican party. You don't wait to prepare against that rhetorical weapon until after the election when it's conclusively proven that there was no fraud - just in case there would be a handful of cases of fraud.

Trumpism hasn't been crushed. It hasn't been conclusively repudiated. It has suffered a setback. It's not even sure that Democrats will win the Georgia senators. Nothing that I am seeing right now about the reaction to these last few weeks is giving me much hope for the next few years. It's going to be a long, protracted battle and Trump has normalized so much transgressions already. I mean, FFS, former officials felt the need to intervene publicly to warn against using the military in an electoral battle. Would you ever have thought this would happen, ten years ago?

There may be something to what you say, but by the same token every Republican who called out Trump could have been primaried and replaced.  Plenty of Republicans called him out during the presidential primary but he won anyway.  Several administration's worth of Intelligence community appointees said he was not fit.  So if the claim is if Republican officials had started out earlier calling out Trump then Republican rank and file would not be QAnon nutters now I'm not sure I agree.

[HisMajestyBOB]

Maybe she is working pro malus instead.

Lol