US Election Week 2020

[Valmy]

Are these senators willing to guarantee that this extra-constitutional commission wouldl change people's minds about the rigged election?

That is the thing. I mean I am fine with doing whatever investigation anybody wants to do about election. But people would have to agree to accept the results. Is Ted Cruz and all these self-righteous frauds really going to just say "ok I guess it was alright, please proceed" when this audit finds everything is more or less on the up and up?

I kind of want to call their bluff. But it is an impossible ask. We could not possibly do a full audit of millions of votes in such a short time. Now maybe we do an investigation later like we did with the Russian thing. But we did tons of them about Benghazi but the results of the investigations never seemed to move the needle much.

[Sheilbh]

That is the thing. I mean I am fine with doing whatever investigation anybody wants to do about election. But people would have to agree to accept the results. Is Ted Cruz and all these self-righteous frauds really going to just say "ok I guess it was alright, please proceed" when this audit finds everything is more or less on the up and up?

No. In November Ted Cruz was saying it's reasonable to wait for all the votes to be counted and all the legal challenges to finish before declaring a winner and now appears to have shifted the goalposts.

[Valmy]

That is the thing. I mean I am fine with doing whatever investigation anybody wants to do about election. But people would have to agree to accept the results. Is Ted Cruz and all these self-righteous frauds really going to just say "ok I guess it was alright, please proceed" when this audit finds everything is more or less on the up and up?

No. In November Ted Cruz was saying it's reasonable to wait for all the votes to be counted and all the legal challenges to finish before declaring a winner and now appears to have shifted the goalposts.

Well he is a known crook now so I wouldn't think he has any actual principles. Pity I thought he was this religious fanatic crazy, but even a religious fanatic crazy will sometimes be right. A corrupt crook and political opportunist will always be on the wrong side.

[Eddie Teach]

Worry is pointless. At no point can I alter the outcome.

Ok, Mono.

I can see how you'd read it that way, but it's not what I meant. I'm not saying to do nothing. I'm saying cross the bridge when you get to it. Fretting proactively won't do any good, especially for us little people with limited agency.

[garbon]

Worry is pointless. At no point can I alter the outcome.

Ok, Mono.

I can see how you'd read it that way, but it's not what I meant. I'm not saying to do nothing. I'm saying cross the bridge when you get to it. Fretting proactively won't do any good, especially for us little people with limited agency.

Dispensing with metaphors, what is it that is finally the inciting event to axt/worry about? Once upon a time we would have cared about elected officials so brazenly trying to subvert democracy/convincing swathes of the public to think our elections are rigged.

[Eddie Teach]

Back in 2000, there were several members of the House who tried to block GWB's inauguration. It came to nothing, just as this will.

As for what point, I'd say it's better for one's peace of mind to only concern himself with events that have happened and not events that may happen.

[Admiral Yi]

Dispensing with metaphors, what is it that is finally the inciting event to axt/worry about? Once upon a time we would have cared about elected officials so brazenly trying to subvert democracy/convincing swathes of the public to think our elections are rigged.

There's nothing in the letter that tries to convince the public our election was rigged.

It's a rather clever attempt to bridge the gap between the bitter enders and the sane wing of the party.

But at the same time pretty cynical, since they know this proposal is going nowhere.

[Sheilbh]

It's a rather clever attempt to bridge the gap between the bitter enders and the sane wing of the party.

That seems generous to a fair few of them. A number of them such as Tuberville are probably bitter enders I'd suggest. Cruz's motivation I suspect is to not let Hawley outflank him ahead of 2024. Johnson's got a re-election coming up and had said the election was legitimate - I suspect this is to stave of the risk of Trump endorsing a campaign against him in 2022.

I think it's, as is probably the case in all politics, a mix of the true believers and the cynics.

[Admiral Yi]

That seems generous to a fair few of them. A number of them such as Tuberville are probably bitter enders I'd suggest. Cruz's motivation I suspect is to not let Hawley outflank him ahead of 2024. Johnson's got a re-election coming up and had said the election was legitimate - I suspect this is to stave of the risk of Trump endorsing a campaign against him in 2022.

I think it's, as is probably the case in all politics, a mix of the true believers and the cynics.

I haven't heard Tuberville speak on teh fraud issue but I have heard Hawley, and what he said reads a lot like this document.  He doesn't come out and say "this election was rigged" (at least not in the stuff I've seen); he says the problem is that a lot of voters *think* it was rigged.  That's not a bitter ender position.  It's a cynical stradler/lawyer weasel position.

[Sheilbh]

I haven't heard Tuberville speak on teh fraud issue but I have heard Hawley, and what he said reads a lot like this document.  He doesn't come out and say "this election was rigged" (at least not in the stuff I've seen); he says the problem is that a lot of voters *think* it was rigged.  That's not a bitter ender position.  It's a cynical stradler/lawyer weasel position.

I agree I'd put Hawley in the cynical camp. He's looking at 2024:

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
So true. Thanks Josh!

Josh Hawley
@HawleyMO
It's time to STAND UP

As I say my guess is that Cruz is signing that letter so Hawley doesn't outflank him on the right/Trumpist wing either. Because even if none of the family run I expect the Trumps will be reminding voters who, faced with a stolen election, stood up for Trump/a fair election and who didn't.

[PJL]

Regardless of how January 6 goes, I wonder if that now means that if GOP controls both House and Senate in 2025, then we'll have a Republican President?

Why wait until then, it could happen in 2023.

[bogh]

Back in 2000, there were several members of the House who tried to block GWB's inauguration. It came to nothing, just as this will.

Several members of the House != 11+ senators, the incumbent and god knows how many members of the House (100+ who supported the Texas lawsuit?). It just doesn't compare. Also the election in 2000 was actually close. I agree it won't to come to anything, but it's well beyond anything previously seen.

[The Minsky Moment]

If 11 Senators got into the habit of urinating all over the Senate floor during open sessions, I don't think the reaction would be to say it's no big deal, it's only 11.  But that would be considerably less destructive than what these 11 Senators are doing.

[Razgovory]

Washington Post got a hold of audio of a phone call between the Sec of State of Georgia and Trump.

The link has the audio if you want to hear it directly

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-raffensperger-call-georgia-vote/2021/01/03/d45acb92-4dc4-11eb-bda4-615aaefd0555_story.html

'I just want to find 11,780 votes': In extraordinary hour-long call, Trump pressures Georgia secretary of state to recalculate the vote in his favor

President Trump urged fellow Republican Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia secretary of state, to "find" enough votes to overturn his defeat in an extraordinary one-hour phone call Saturday that election experts said raised legal questions.

The Washington Post obtained a recording of the conversation in which Trump alternately berated Raffensperger, tried to flatter him, begged him to act and threatened him with vague criminal consequences if the secretary of state refused to pursue his false claims, at one point warning that Raffensperger was taking "a big risk."

Throughout the call, Raffensperger and his office's general counsel rejected Trump's assertions, explaining that the president is relying on debunked conspiracy theories and that President-elect Joe Biden's 11,779-vote victory in Georgia was fair and accurate.

Trump dismissed their arguments.

"The people of Georgia are angry, the people in the country are angry," he said. "And there's nothing wrong with saying, you know, um, that you've recalculated."

Raffensperger responded: "Well, Mr. President, the challenge that you have is, the data you have is wrong."

Election results under attack: Here are the facts

At another point, Trump said: "So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. Because we won the state."

The rambling and at times incoherent conversation offered a remarkable glimpse of how consumed and desperate the president remains about his loss, unwilling or unable to let the matter go and still believing he can reverse the results in enough battleground states to remain in office.

"There's no way I lost Georgia," Trump said, a phrase he repeated again and again on the call. "There's no way. We won by hundreds of thousands of votes."

Several of his allies were on the line as he spoke, including White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and conservative lawyer Cleta Mitchell, a prominent GOP attorney whose involvement with Trump's efforts had not been previously known.

In a statement, Mitchell said Raffensperger's office "has made many statements over the past two months that are simply not correct and everyone involved with the efforts on behalf of the President's election challenge has said the same thing: show us your records on which you rely to make these statements that our numbers are wrong."

The White House, the Trump campaign and Meadows did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Raffensperger's office declined to comment.

On Sunday, Trump tweeted that he had spoken to Raffensperger, saying the secretary of state was "unwilling, or unable, to answer questions such as the 'ballots under table' scam, ballot destruction, out of state 'voters', dead voters, and more. He has no clue!"

Raffensperger responded with his own tweet: "Respectfully, President Trump: What you're saying is not true."

The pressure Trump put on Raffensperger is the latest example of his attempt to subvert the outcome of the Nov. 3 election through personal outreach to state Republican officials. He previously invited Michigan Republican state leaders to the White House, pressured Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp (R) in a call to try to replace that state's electors and asked the speaker of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives to help reverse his loss in that state.

His call to Raffensperger came as scores of Republicans have pledged to challenge the electoral college's vote for Biden when Congress convenes for a joint session on Wednesday. Republicans do not have the votes to successfully thwart Biden's victory, but Trump has urged supporters to travel to Washington to protest the outcome, and state and federal officials are already bracing for clashes outside the Capitol.

Growing number of Trump loyalists in the Senate vow to challenge Biden's victory

During their conversation, Trump issued a vague threat to both Raffensperger and Ryan Germany, the secretary of state's general counsel, suggesting that if they don't find that thousands of ballots in Fulton County have been illegally destroyed to block investigators — an allegation for which there is no evidence — they would be subject to criminal liability.

"That's a criminal offense," he said. "And you can't let that happen. That's a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer."

Trump also told Raffensperger that failure to act by Tuesday would jeopardize the political fortunes of David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler, Georgia's two Republican senators whose fate in that day's runoff elections will determine control of the U.S. Senate.

Trump said he plans to talk about the fraud on Monday, when he is scheduled to lead an election eve rally in Dalton, Ga. — a message that could further muddle the efforts of Republicans to get their voters out.

"You have a big election coming up and because of what you've done to the president — you know, the people of Georgia know that this was a scam," Trump said. "Because of what you've done to the president, a lot of people aren't going out to vote, and a lot of Republicans are going to vote negative, because they hate what you did to the president. Okay? They hate it. And they're going to vote. And you would be respected, really respected, if this can be straightened out before the election."

Trump's conversation with Raffensperger put him in legally questionable territory, legal experts said. By exhorting the secretary of state to "find" votes and to deploy investigators who "want to find answers," Trump appears to be encouraging him to doctor the election outcome in Georgia.

But experts said Trump's clearer transgression is a moral one. Edward B. Foley, a law professor at Ohio State University, said that the legal questions are murky and would be subject to prosecutorial discretion. But he also emphasized that the call was "inappropriate and contemptible" and should prompt moral outrage.

"He was already tripping the emergency meter," Foley said. "So we were at 12 on a scale of 1 to 10, and now we're at 15."

Throughout the call, Trump detailed an exhaustive list of disinformation and conspiracy theories to support his position. He claimed without evidence that he had won Georgia by at least a half-million votes. He floated a barrage of assertions that have been investigated and disproved: that thousands of dead people voted; that an Atlanta election worker scanned 18,000 forged ballots three times each and "100 percent" were for Biden; that thousands more voters living out of state came back to Georgia illegally just to vote in the election.

"So tell me, Brad, what are we going to do? We won the election, and it's not fair to take it away from us like this," Trump said. "And it's going to be very costly in many ways. And I think you have to say that you're going to reexamine it, and you can reexamine it, but reexamine it with people that want to find answers, not people who don't want to find answers."

Trump did most of the talking on the call. He was angry and impatient, calling Raffensperger a "child" and "either dishonest or incompetent" for not believing there was widespread ballot fraud in Atlanta — and twice calling himself a "schmuck" for endorsing Kemp, whom Trump holds in particular contempt for not embracing his claims of fraud.

"I can't imagine he's ever getting elected again, I'll tell you that much right now," he said.

He also took aim at Kemp's 2018 opponent, Democrat Stacey Abrams, trying to shame Raffensperger with the idea that his refusal to embrace fraud has helped her and Democrats generally. "Stacey Abrams is laughing about you," he said. "She's going around saying, 'These guys are dumber than a rock.' What she's done to this party is unbelievable, I tell you."

The secretary of state repeatedly sought to push back, saying at one point, "Mr. President, the problem you have with social media, they — people can say anything."

"Oh this isn't social media," Trump retorted. "This is Trump media. It's not social media. It's really not. It's not social media. I don't care about social media. I couldn't care less."

At another point, Trump claimed that votes were scanned three times: "Brad, why did they put the votes in three times? You know, they put 'em in three times."

Raffensperger responded: "Mr. President, they did not. We did an audit of that and we proved conclusively that they were not scanned three times."

Trump sounded at turns confused and meandering. At one point, he referred to Kemp as "George." He tossed out several different figures for Biden's margin of victory in Georgia and referred to the Senate runoff, which is Tuesday, as happening "tomorrow" and "Monday."

His desperation was perhaps most pronounced during an exchange with Germany, Raffensperger's general counsel, in which he openly begged for validation.

Trump: "Do you think it's possible that they shredded ballots in Fulton County? 'Cause that's what the rumor is. And also that Dominion took out machines. That Dominion is really moving fast to get rid of their, uh, machinery. Do you know anything about that? Because that's illegal."

Germany responded: "No, Dominion has not moved any machinery out of Fulton County."

Trump: "But have they moved the inner parts of the machines and replaced them with other parts?"

Germany: "No."

Trump: "Are you sure? Ryan?"

Germany: "I'm sure. I'm sure, Mr. President."

It was clear from the call that Trump has surrounded himself with aides who have fed his false perceptions that the election was stolen. When he claimed that more than 5,000 ballots were cast in Georgia in the name of dead people, Raffensperger responded forcefully: "The actual number was two. Two. Two people that were dead that voted."

But later, Meadows said, "I can promise you there are more than that."

Another Trump lawyer on the call, Kurt Hilbert, accused Raffensperger's office of refusing to turn over data to assess evidence of fraud, and also claimed awareness of at least 24,000 illegally cast ballots that would flip the result to Trump.

"It stands to reason that if the information is not forthcoming, there's something to hide," Hilbert said. "That's the problem that we have."

Reached by phone Sunday, Hilbert declined to comment.

In the end, Trump asked Germany to sit down with one of his attorneys to go over the allegations. Germany agreed.

Yet Trump also recognized that he was failing to persuade Raffensperger or Germany of anything, saying toward the end, "I know this phone call is going nowhere."

But he continued to make his case in repetitive fashion, until finally, after roughly an hour, Raffensperger put an end to the conversation: "Thank you, President Trump, for your time."

[garbon]

I suppose also nothing to worry about?