US Election Week 2020

[grumbler]

Is Beefsteak Charlie's still around??

NPR has started referring to "president elect Biden."  Not crazy about that.

uh. What should they call him then??

Presumptive president elect.

Or for fuck sakes Yi, stop watching whatever nonsense it is that makes you think he is not the President Elect.  Hell even Fox News is calling him that.

  The election of the president hasn't even been held yet.  Hell, we haven't even seen the final results of the election of the electors who will elect the president.

I know that this is hard for foreigners to understand, but the US president is selected by the Electoral College, not the general populace.  A candidate becomes the president-elect in fact only when he has actually been elected.  Faux Snooze does not elect the president.

[FunkMonk]

The mood now versus the mood Tuesday night is, uh, night and day.

I only live North of your country and I feel like a great weight has been lifted.  I can't imagine what it must be like for you.

If my wife weren't pregnant we'd probably be outside the White House right now. As it is, I'm sipping on a nice whiskey and watching people being very happy on my television 

[grumbler]

Presumptive president elect.

Great chat, best one ever.  Let's do this regularly! 

well when you post asinine comments, I treat them with all the input they deserve.

American civics FAIL 

[Admiral Yi]

well when you post asinine comments, I treat them with all the input they deserve.

[Sheilbh]

So this is it?  What about the legal challenges, the 6-3 Supreme Court decisions that will favour Trump, the tricks that Trump will play to steal the election at state level?  Where are all these?

I mean we saw some of those tricks in the fact that mail-in ballots were counted after in certain states with Republican legislatures not letting those votes be ccounted in advance as they are in states were mail-in ballots are more common and not a new covid thing. The fact we have had these days of this being a "close" race is because of that deliberate choice. If those votes were all counted at once the election would have been called on Tuesday night with Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania - we'd have spent the last few days talking about whether Biden could add to his win with the far tighter sunbelt states.

In terms of the rest, Trump can't do that alone. As has always been the case - he needs the GOP more than they need him and, frankly, they don't need him any more. If they'd lost the Senate and this hung on one state then I think we'd be seeing very different messages establishment Republicans and, probably, a higher wattage legal challenge etc.

[Sheilbh]

Presumptive president elect.

Is that how it's typically done? The media didn't refer to Obama as President-elect until mid-December and referred to "presumptive President-elect" Trump when he was firing his transition team etc? Just from a quick search I can see things the day after election night referring to President-elect Obama.

Because if that's not the norm then it seems like it's rewarding Trump for throwing a tantrum by treating Biden differently than you'd treat any other candidate in any other year.

I actually think the media has a quasi-constitutional role (through conventions not law), a bit like a concession. So you've really got two competing conventions which aren't necessary for the operation of the constitution but almost form part of it. I think the convention that the winner gets referred to as President-elect once it's clear they've won is more important because it reinforces the validity of the system, rather than depending on the concession of the loser.

[Admiral Yi]

Is that how it's typically done? The media didn't refer to Obama as President-elect until mid-December and referred to "presumptive President-elect" Trump when he was firing his transition team etc? Just from a quick search I can see things the day after election night referring to President-elect Obama.

Because if that's not the norm then it seems like it's rewarding Trump for throwing a tantrum by treating Biden differently than you'd treat any other candidate in any other year.

I actually think the media has a quasi-constitutional role (through conventions not law), a bit like a concession. So you've really got two competing conventions which aren't necessary for the operation of the constitution but almost form part of it. I think the convention that the winner gets referred to as President-elect once it's clear they've won is more important because it reinforces the validity of the system, rather than depending on the concession of the loser.

My impression, and I'm willing to be proven wrong, is that we wait until votes are counted before annointing.  I certainly can't recall with any certainty an election in my memory for which the media started to refer to a candidate as president elect while votes were still being counted, enough votes to determine the outcome.

[Sheilbh]

My impression, and I'm willing to be proven wrong, is that we wait until votes are counted before annointing.  I certainly can't recall with any certainty an election in my memory for which the media started to refer to a candidate as president elect while votes were still being counted, enough votes to determine the outcome.

But aren't votes counted for about a week afterwards normally in some states. I certainly remember at the last election that while you had President-elect Trump we were still getting regular updates on Clintons growing popular vote lead. And it definitely happened in 2008 - see about 4.30 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYT_JjVbcMU

[katmai]

The votes still being counted can't change the outcome of electoral college into Trumps favor though Yi.
And I will publicly apologize if you can show me where in the last 8 elections we've been calling them "presumptive"president elect.

And grumbler. How about that Michigan football team??

[Admiral Yi]

But aren't votes counted for about a week afterwards normally in some states. I certainly remember at the last election that while you had President-elect Trump we were still getting regular updates on Clintons growing popular vote lead. And it definitely happened in 2008 - see about 4.30 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYT_JjVbcMU

I'm not sure what point you wanted to make with that clip.  GW students celebrating shows what exactly?

[Sheilbh]

But aren't votes counted for about a week afterwards normally in some states. I certainly remember at the last election that while you had President-elect Trump we were still getting regular updates on Clintons growing popular vote lead. And it definitely happened in 2008 - see about 4.30 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYT_JjVbcMU

I'm not sure what point you wanted to make with that clip.  GW students celebrating shows what exactly?

The reporter: "right after the call had been made and that Senator Obama was now President-elect Obama".

[mongers]

This is a very dangerous moment. The architecture of the American electoral process is  far from seamless.  Like much else it relies on people following custom and unwritten rules to work smoothly.  Trump has shown again and again he is completely unconstrained by such norms and views them as vulnerable loopholes to be vigorously exploited.  Trump doesn't need to win legal actions in court on the merits, he just need to disrupt or drag out the process of formally commissioning Electors long enough to prevent a sufficient number of states from certifying slates of Electors by the December 14 deadline for the Electors to meet and cast their votes.  If he can do that, no candidate will secure 270 and the election goes to the House to vote by delegation, where the GOP controls a majority of delegations. This no longer hypothetical speculation, it is Trump's strategy and it appears he has already succeeded in getting important elected GOP officials to cooperate with at least the opening moves.

Quoted for posterity, hoping you're proven entirely wrong; but given your respect on this foreign I fear some of what you've warned again or predicted might come to pass.

I'm feeling a little better now that I saw that Trump's legal effort consists of Rudy and a couple ambulance chasers ranting in the backroom of a Beefsteak Charlie's

I think if 'we' can be through the next 48 hours without a major terrorist attack by Trump loyalists, say drive-by mass shootings of celebrating Biden supporters, then I'll be pleasantly surprised and maybe the hot-heads will cool off?

As it is I think FBI et al will have to devote considerable resources to combating domestic terrorism from the right, there's almost certainly going to be McVeigh-like characters planning outrages in the coming years.

[Admiral Yi]

The votes still being counted can't change the outcome of electoral college into Trumps favor though Yi.
And I will publicly apologize if you can show me where in the last 8 elections we've been calling them "presumptive"president elect.

And grumbler. How about that Michigan football team??

I'm seeing:

AZ Biden up 21,188 with 130,467 to count
GA Biden up 7,547 with unknown to count
NV Biden up 25,699 with 113,398 to count
NC Trump up
PA Biden up 37,298 with 78,792

Your apology is up to your conscience.  As is my opinion whether you're being a douche.

edit: I mean my opinion of you is up to my conscience, not yours.

[Admiral Yi]

The reporter: "right after the call had been made and that Senator Obama was now President-elect Obama".

Sure.  And I'm pretty sure there were not enough uncounted votes left at that point to swing the election.

[Sheilbh]

Sure.  And I'm pretty sure there were not enough uncounted votes left at that point to swing the election.

Of course there were - there were articles about the networks possibly calling the election before the polls had even closed in some states:
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/04/us/politics/04network.html

Here's a list of recent elections and when AP calls it:
2012: 11:38 pm, Tuesday
2008: 11 pm, Tuesday
2004: 11:19 am, Wednesday
2000: No call
1996: 9 pm, Tuesday

I don't think they then waited until it is mathematically impossible in all states to refer to the winner as President-elect. You're right that legally the call means nothing, but it is customary to start referring to the President-elect once they call a winner and customs/conventions matter. I don't think they should put that on hold because the current President is making spurious and baseless allegations of fraud. I think it's important to re-inforce the norms at this point.

Edit: I mean at the minute I think it's mathematically possible for Trump to flip California - do we wait until it's impossible for that to happen?