Da Belarusian thread

[Razgovory]

Psellus used to go on about Tankies on Facebook.  People who defend Beria and such.  Loathsome.

[Admiral Yi]

Didn't we (Languish) try to invade a pro North Korean forum one time?

[The Larch]

Way worse - they're a thing on red rose Twitter.

Red rose Twitter?

People with red roses in their Twitter handles. People with just a red rose - normally American Democratic Socialists - and maybe split between Bernie stans v more identity politics left. Red rose and/or a hammer and sickle = tankie

Ah, ok, over here the symbol that has really taken off in the last few years in the online left is the red triangle facing downwards, the Nazi camp badge for political prisoners. I believe the pink triangle is also pretty popular for LGTBQ+ activists.

I've seen tankie used plenty of times online and by americans, I was not aware of it being originally British. It's meant to cover the Stalinists who'd have gone all "send in the tanks!" at the Prague Spring and the Hungarian uprising during the cold war, nowadays it's those that will still defend the Soviet Union no matter what, as well as the contemporary authoritarian regimes that purport themselves to be socialist or commie-ish, not just Cuba but Belarus, China, Syria, etc, as well as Russia itself.

I think it actually originates from splits on the British hard left between those who opposed the USSR over Hungary (which was a huge issue on the British hard left) and Prague (less of an issue because it was a tiny groupuscule by then) and those who enthusiastically supported them sending in the tanks.

As mentioned, I had no idea of its historical origins in the British left, for me it was basically a shorthand for Stalinist.

I always find the high Stalinist Western Communist parties weirdly fascinating - but in the UK, and I think most of Western Europe, Hungary caused absolute collapse of their support and membership.

Few of those are relevant anymore, thankfully, but you'll always find the weird one around that rejects Eurocommunism and keeps touting hardcore postures and unabashedly displaying the hammer and sickle in their symbols.

Over here our main commie party is completely within the Eurocommie orthodoxy and all other splitters that reject it are basically irrelevant. In Portugal it's different, for instance, I believe their main commie party, which has a few MPs, is still pretty tankie, and there's even an extraparlamentary Maoist commie party too.

[Sheilbh]

Ah, ok, over here the symbol that has really taken off in the last few years in the online left is the red triangle facing downwards, the Nazi camp badge for political prisoners. I believe the pink triangle is also pretty popular for LGTBQ+ activists.

Interesting - not seen those here.

Few of those are relevant anymore, thankfully, but you'll always find the weird one around that rejects Eurocommunism and keeps touting hardcore postures and unabashedly displaying the hammer and sickle in their symbols.

Over here our main commie party is completely within the Eurocommie orthodoxy and all other splitters that reject it are basically irrelevant. In Portugal it's different, for instance, I believe their main commie party, which has a few MPs, is still pretty tankie, and there's even an extraparlamentary Maoist commie party too.

Yeah -  I mean here the left, even the hard left, outside of the Labour Party are genuine groupuscules. They're all tiny and engaged in intense theological debate with each other.

But there were a few basically Communist MPs within Labour some were very sympathetic to the USSR regardless of its politics, there were others that were basically Titoist and there have been numerous Trotskyite entryist groups within Labour. They never had much success (the peak was probably the 80s) but I think it does shape our experience of left politics compared with the rest of Europe that it's always been focused on and through Labour and it was often about subverting or taking over Labour.

It's utterly different from most of the rest of Europe where the Socialists and Communists were separate and normally hated each other And the development of Communist approaches from basically being full tankies (Thorez, Togliattii) to Eurocommunism - and I think Hungary was crucial in that in most countries.

Edit: And also the UK never had unions dividing on ideological grounds. So there was never a communist union and an anarchist union and a socialist union. The National Union of Miners and a few other unions were very close to the Communists as well as funding and having votes in Labour rather than there being a Communist NUM and a Labour NUM.

[garbon]

I think the pink triangle is now the ancient approach for gays. I know it used to be bigger when fighting for gay rights. I think old school SF still uses it.

[Sheilbh]

I think the pink triangle is now the ancient approach for gays. I know it used to be bigger when fighting for gay rights. I think old school SF still uses it.

Yeah I associate with ACT UP, don't really see it so much on Twitter.

[Jacob]

People with red roses in their Twitter handles. People with just a red rose - normally American Democratic Socialists - and maybe split between Bernie stans v more identity politics left. Red rose and/or a hammer and sickle = tankie

I'm a bit confused....

The Red Rose is a typical symbol of mainstream Social Democrats in Europe and is used in the US as well, where Euro style Social Democracy is seen as radical.

Are you describing mainstream Social Democrats (and Zoupa) as tankies? Are you saying that tankies have taken a Social Democratic symbol as their own? Or are you saying that saying that some sections of twitter are mixing tankie and mainstream Social Democratic politics in their positions?

[Barrister]

Didn't we (Languish) try to invade a pro North Korean forum one time?

A communist (tankie, though we didn't call it that at the time) yes.

[Josquius]

I usually see tankie chronically misused to mean anyone who tries to have nuance looking at the Soviet Union. The term has become popular in recent years and lost all meaning with it.

[Sheilbh]

Interesting. Air France Paris-Moscow flight has been cancelled. It didn't go through Belarussian airspace, so Russia refused permission for it to go through its airspace.

Obviously this isn't a blanket approach by Russia because there have been other flights from EU and UK airports that have used the non-Belarus routes. But it is maybe now just a risk for flights to Russia.

I also wonder if Air France was a deliberate choice given the big change in rhetoric from Macron and Elysee over Russia in the last few days following this incident.

[Valmy]

Maybe. But Russia just kind of does shit almost at random just to confuse. Probably tomorrow it favors Air France over somebody else.

[garbon]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/03/belarus-exile-group-leader-vitaly-shishov-missing-in-kyiv-police-say

Off the back of that Olympian seeking asylum in Poland.

Belarus exile group leader Vitaly Shishov found dead in Kyiv, police say

The head of a Kyiv-based non-profit organisation that helps Belarusians fleeing persecution has been found dead in a park in the Ukrainian capital, police have said.

Vitaly Shishov, the head of Belarusian House in Ukraine (BDU), was reported missing by his partner on Monday after he did not return from a run and could not be reached on his mobile phone.

"Belarusian citizen Vitaly Shishov, who had gone missing in Kyiv yesterday, was today found hanged in one of the Kyiv parks, not far from where he lived," police said in a statement, adding that they had opened a murder investigation and would pursue all leads including a possible "murder disguised as a suicide".

Friends of Shishov said he had been followed by "strangers" while jogging recently, the human rights organisation Viasna said on Telegram. The organisation said on Monday it was not able to contact Shishov, who it said had left his residence at 9am (0700 BST) and was supposed to have returned an hour later.

Ukraine, Poland and Lithuania have become safe havens for Belarusians during a violent crackdown by the country's strongman president, Alexander Lukashenko, on any form of dissent since mass protests erupted after last year's disputed elections.

Belarusian authorities have characterised anti-government protesters as criminals or violent revolutionaries backed by the west, describing the actions of law enforcement agencies as adequate and necessary.

BDU helps Belarusians find accommodation, jobs and legal advice, according to its website.

Shishov's disappearance came as the Belarusian athlete Krystsina Tsimanouskaya said she was forced to withdraw from the Tokyo Olympics and threatened with forced repatriation for criticising her athletics federation on social media.

The sprinter, who was granted a humanitarian visa from Poland on Monday, said she feared being jailed if she returned to her country, where the authorities have targeted the president's opponents, rights activists and journalists.

Her husband, Arseniy Zdanevich, told AFP he had fled from Belarus to Ukraine and was hoping to join his wife "in the near future".

Lukashenko and his son Viktor have been banned from Olympic events over the targeting of athletes for their political views.

The president sparked international outrage in May by dispatching a fighter jet to intercept a Ryanair plane flying from Greece to Lithuania in order to arrest a dissident onboard.

[Syt]

A Belarusian athlete criticized her coaches at the Olympics and was ordered to fly back. She was worried she would be punished at home and asked the police for help. Several European states offered her asylum; she received a humanitarian visa from the Polish embassy.

Originally she said she would ask for help from the Austrian embassy (she's worked with Austrian coaches), but the Austrian embassy did ... nothing.

The Austrian government was criticized for not reaching out to her. Some say they didn't want to piss off Belarus; apparently after Russians, Austrians are the biggest investors in the country. The official line is that the embassy was waiting for her to show up after she said she'd contact them and didn't see it necessary to do anything else.

[viper37]

"Belarusian citizen Vitaly Shishov, who had gone missing in Kyiv yesterday, was today found hanged in one of the Kyiv parks, not far from where he lived," police said in a statement, adding that they had opened a murder investigation and would pursue all leads including a possible "murder disguised as a suicide".

If there are no chairs around and his hands were tied behind it's back, there's a decent chance russian and belarussian medias will report the cause of death as "natural causes".

[DGuller]

"Belarusian citizen Vitaly Shishov, who had gone missing in Kyiv yesterday, was today found hanged in one of the Kyiv parks, not far from where he lived," police said in a statement, adding that they had opened a murder investigation and would pursue all leads including a possible "murder disguised as a suicide".

If there are no chairs around and his hands were tied behind it's back, there's a decent chance russian and belarussian medias will report the cause of death as "natural causes".

I don't think they're that dumb.  They'll say it was a false flag murder.